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Hunting

(145 Posts)
mrsmopp Wed 18-Feb-15 20:11:25

Hunting was banned ten years ago today. Was it a good thing to ban hunting? We now have foxes in our towns which didnt happen before. Or did it?

granjura Sat 21-Feb-15 11:40:55

There are nowadays so many totally fox proof solutions for keeping chickens safe btw.

Many people who hunt do hate the 'hunting' part- but hunting is so closely linked to riding, the poney clubs, rural village life, etc, etc- and there are few opportunitities for good riding in the countryside not linked to 'that world'. I often discussed this with friends who hunted (we lived in prime hunting country with several of the most famous Hunts around us in East Leics)- and the said they hated the cubbing and the hunt- but loved riding and the social life, and never had the guts to stand up and say how they felt, for fear of being ostracized.

Anniebach Sat 21-Feb-15 11:46:47

anyone protesting at a meet knows if it will be drag hunting or not, unless they are driving through a town or village spot a meet and think oh let's protest, and this I very much doubt . It isn't just turning up on the day, it's watching, listening , following , not just one day of waving a banner .

I have never worn a balaclava , have been hit with a crop several times , been sworn at and on one occasion had my hand deliberately injured by a gentleman ! slamming a farm gate on it.

Fox hunting is brutal and does not bring down the fox population.

Mishap Sat 21-Feb-15 11:57:53

And brutalises those who enjoy it by the sound of things.

nightowl Sat 21-Feb-15 12:00:33

I always find it quite a strange argument that people who hunt do it because they enjoy the riding and not the kill (not getting at you granjura because its an argument that's often repeated). I always think it's a bit like those who went to watch the guillotine saying 'of course I don't like the actual beheadings, but I just go for the knitting. The 'stitch and bitch' down at the library just doesn't have the same atmosphere'

granjura Sat 21-Feb-15 12:05:20

This is not an 'argument' - but the reality in Hunting and riding country as related to me again and again over 35+ years. Yes, it does amazed me the first time I heard it- and still does now.

Anniebach Sat 21-Feb-15 12:45:43

granjura, I have heard that explanation / excuse so often , and it is an excuse, who truly would be part of something as horrific as cubbing for any reason other than it excites them . Would these people go to dog fights because it's part of village life and supported by a group they want to be part of . I wish hunters would be honest , just say I love the thrill of hunting an animal to ground , but they will not because they would lose public support so turn it back on the wicked fox who creates havoc, kills chicks and cuddly lambs

rosequartz Sat 21-Feb-15 12:46:59

nightowl grin

(Sorry, I know this is an emotive subject but I shall think of that when I pick up my knitting later)

thatbags Sat 21-Feb-15 12:49:03

anya, it came back for them one at a time. At least, that's what I've seen happen in wildlife programmes so I'm assuming our fox did the same.

thatbags Sat 21-Feb-15 12:52:41

Can hunted foxes be fed to the hounds? Wouldn't have thought there'd be much fox left after a pack of hounds had torn it asunder. Or does the leader of the hunt call the dogs off and kill the fox humanely?

If the fox is not eaten what happens to it? Is it left for scavengers like crows, buzzards, gulls?

thatbags Sat 21-Feb-15 12:55:16

Is it a killing frenzy that the foxhounds have when they catch a fox? Both animals are canines, comparatively closely related in evolutionary terms.

granjura Sat 21-Feb-15 13:27:29

anniebach- I don't get it either. But the fear of ostracization should not be under-estimated. I've discussed this before, and how it used to be used in very old civilisations. I mentioned the book 'The Bear clan'- and how a tribe decides to 'kill' someone via totally ignoring a person and pretending they can't see, hear, etc- them. This happens in religions and Churches too- and of course social networks of every kind (including the internet)- when messages by pm, for instance- pass the message to totally ignore someone's messages and posts. Very basic, very old- but still very much a reality- especially in rural life. Same for political alliance too- when people vote not by educated choice, but as their community tells them too- lest they do not 'belong' anymore. 'Belonging' is a very strong need for many.

Anniebach Sat 21-Feb-15 13:41:33

granjura, I do understand you but I have lived in a village , a South Wales valley town, in market towns , live in a market town now, I have never encountered a whole community which share the same principles and values , so the people who fear being ostracised fear not being accepted in one group not in a whole community, isn't that a sad way to live , not being true to ones self and teaching ones children the same

granjura Sat 21-Feb-15 13:45:34

Absolutely with you there! I am so grateful I grew up in a family that challenged the 'belonging' from the very start- different religions, social class, etc, etc. It makes you strong and able to stand up for yourself and what you believe. Sadly, in rural UK and here in rural Switzerland and France - many people still just 'toe the line' for fear of not belonging.

Very sad indeed.

Anya Sat 21-Feb-15 15:54:44

Perhaps your fox had bags to put its catch in! And yes, that is another example of a killing frenzy.

thatbags Sat 21-Feb-15 17:45:46

Like this one, anya? wink

Anya Sat 21-Feb-15 18:02:31

grin

granjura Fri 12-Jun-15 19:40:16

Hunts keeping numbers down - or up to have plenty to hunt!?!

This is just sick

youtu.be/D7PjfphDsc0

whitewave Fri 12-Jun-15 19:46:01

It simply shows the lie for what it is - that hunting foxes keeps their numbers down - cubs being "readied" for the hunt in the autumn is beyond sick.

granjura Fri 12-Jun-15 20:13:03

Indeed- 'cubbing' sounds quite romantic- but the reality is just dreadfully cruel, and kept well hidden from public view.

Atqui Fri 12-Jun-15 21:11:10

Thanks Bagsfor your input .

Atqui Fri 12-Jun-15 21:21:54

...and granjura . I'm sure foxes are opportunists and would come back for their kill had it not been cleared away by the hen owners. How do people expect a single fox to carry away all their prey in one go?

loopylou Fri 12-Jun-15 21:24:49

I'm ambivalent about hunting, I had 65 bantams massacred by a fox in one night. It dug through a 3' drystone barn wall which also had an electric fence around the outside.
It didn't take a single bird.

Atqui Fri 12-Jun-15 21:36:39

Perhaps it was disturbed.? I don't object to foxes being culled if necessary, but as many people have already said , its considering it to be a sport that really gets me.If they want to have a good gallop across the countryside fair enough, but it has little to do with controlling the fox population IMO.

granjura Sat 13-Jun-15 09:30:15

Agreed- a rogue fox can be quickly and cleanly shot. Some farmers however shoot any fox that they see, be it a problem or not.

We lost all our pet chickens to a vixen- but it was entirely our fault. We forgot to close the hen coop door one night. Poor husbandry is very often the problem. Loopylou. losing all your bantams must have been awful- I am sorry.

When we lost our 6 and as said, they were pets. We felt so bad we were responsible for poor husbandry and care- but never turned our anger at the vixen. She took one and dutifully buried the others under the hedge, with feet just stiking up. We made the decision to leave them- and let nature take its course. I would just love to have chickens here, but with beech and pine marten, foxes and badgers all around- it would be a constant battle.

As said before, foxes do an excellent job or ridding the countryside and also our towns of rubbish and vermin, rats, etc. They are the only effective predator we have in the UK. No foxes = more vermin, rabbit damage, etc.

But in towns foxes are so numerous because of OUR ACTIONS - stop leaving rubbish all over the place (take-aways, McDonalds, etc, and more) and STOP FEEDING THEM. Those who artificially feed foxes cause foxes to breed more and more. Bristol UNI has shown clearly that the number of cubs produced each year is a direct result of the food available.

granjura Sat 13-Jun-15 10:52:08

An interesting article from the Irish Times, 13th Feb 1999- part of which is reproduced below. Research has shown that the % loss of lambs on Scottish Islands without any foxes remains the same as on those islands where foxes are present. It is true that foxes will take dead, dying or weak lambs- but much more rarely healthy ones. Poor husbandry, isolated locations with bad weather, snow, cold too much rain and no protection or extra feed, is the mainb culprit. And modern artificial insemination also means that there are more and more multiple births- with the second or thrid lamb being weaker, and the mother unable to protect it/them if singled out by a fox (like all wild animals, they will observe and look for the weakest). Which does not mean that there are NO instances of a fox taking a live healthy lamb- but these are overall rare indeed.

Foxy Study

Michael Viney

Topics:
News

Sat, Feb 13, 1999, 00:00

First published:
Sat, Feb 13, 1999, 00:00

A favourite sound-effect for makers of television thrillers these days is the weird night-wail of a vixen calling up a mate: nothing like it for setting the mood as the killer edges through the laurels.

There have been a lot of phoney wails in the night in the west these past few weeks, and a lot of flickering will-o-the-wisps around the borders of the spruce forests. The vixen-cries come from fox-calls of the sort bought in gunshops, or the squeal of polystyrene rubbed across a windscreen, and the willo-the-wisps are the beams of lampers' spotlights, aimed to light an opal glow in the eyes of a questing dog-fox. Sometimes, one will walk to within a dozen metres, but 50 metres will do, even with a shotgun.

From now until April, when the western lambing begins, a midnight patrol to shoot foxes will be routine for many big sheep-farmers. "My ewes are too scared to lie down for long," says a friend in Co Sligo. "If they die after dark, there'll be only skin and bone left by morning." Last year he shot 54 foxes coming up to lambing. Out after woodcock the other Sunday, he saw another seven.

He's a shooter, but one who loves wildlife. He takes visitors to see badgers digging up his fields at night, and his wife puts out food for a pine marten. There's a family of foxes he doesn't shoot because he's never found lamb bones at their den (and, luckily for them, he thinks he knows their faces).

But, in 1997, he lost more than 100 lambs from twins, some of them a week old, and last spring another 34. He has a vixen's footprint in cement from the time she sneaked into a new shed and stole a triplet, three days old.

Some ewes, especially first-time mothers, are apt to run off with one lamb when danger threatens, leaving the other to its fate. Perhaps this is a price to be paid for giving ewes twins and triplets - but this is not, perhaps, a good time for putting arguments of this sort to a farmer. Certainly, my friend's experience has to be set against the sometimes glib, green view of foxes as natural cullers of a "doomed surplus" of weak and sickly lambs, or as mere scavengers of afterbirth.

What it does suggest, however - and this is scarcely news to ecologists - is that shooting adult foxes indiscriminately in the winter has very little to do with "control". An expert study in the western Highlands of Scotland in the late 1980s monitored what happened on the 70 sq km Loch Eriboll estate when the foxes were left alone for three years, and compared it with another big estate where shooting went on as normal.

The result was no obvious difference in lamb losses (0.6-1.8 per cent) and no increase in the number of foxes. This has been the only systematic European study of its kind, carried out in a region with a deep-seated hatred of foxes, rather like Connacht. But Scottish islands with no foxes lose just as many lambs as mainland areas with fiercely active gun clubs.

Available food - mainly rabbits, voles and sheep and deer carrion - was the key to fox population in Scotland. In Ireland, a decade of carrion littered across the hills from a gross overstocking of sheep must have had its impact on fox numbers. My Sligo friend reckons average litters of two to four cubs have now risen commonly to five to seven.