Just how arrogant are the anti-EU Conservatives?

And such talk peps up the people who agree with them. This is the way of political talk, how it works. One needs to be able to cut through the rhetoric though, admittedly, it's not always easy.

I am, so far, on the get out of EU side.
So, Conservatives for Britain I think is a good phrase.

But I take your point. Sort of.
It is rather clever though. It does plant seeds of doubt that other conservatives, and other parties are not for Britain. And to be fair, they could very well be out for themselves as regards the EU gravy train.
See...it has got me doing it now as well. Thinking along lines they want us to think.

one needs to be able to cut through the rhetoric, though admittedly it's not always easy

"Atticus told me to delete the adjectives and I'd have the facts"

Wise and timely words from To Kill a Mockingbird

Discussion on the Sunday Politics about it at the moment.

They asked the government for a spokesperson on the issue, but nobody was available.
Who's the most arrogant?

This referendum is a farce - is there anyone on here who claims to fully understand the economic implications of being either in or out? I would guess only a few.

The rest of us (and I include myself in this) have only the haziest idea of what economic repercussions might follow from leaving the EU.

Many people in the country at large will vote on atavistic tribal loyalty and a "keep the foreigners out" mentality, and this may result in unfortunate economic results.

Well said Mishap, I totally agree.

I just hope the country gets accurate and impartial information in good time or the implications either way could be seriously damaging.

fullfact.org/europe/manifesto_election_2015_europe-44682

Full fact are going to follow all claims on the EU referendum.
I do not think it's good enough to say we do not know. It is possible to find out what will happen if we withdraw.

I notice that Owen Paterson said this morning on the Andrew Marr show that it's good that Cameron hasn't said what he wants from the EU, but we should back him. What?

The new MP for Stockton South has just said that if there was a referendum tomorrow he would vote out. He is in charge of the Northern Powerhouse.

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2015/06/08/the-tory-civil-war-begins-now

theconversation.com/even-brexit-backers-cant-make-the-sums-work-for-uk-to-quit-eu-26015

This is interesting. The author of the winning entry in a competition about Britain leaving the EU actually made the case for staying in.

Mishap, most people do not understand about politics in general, but it does not stop them having a vote in the general election.

I shall start from now and do as much research as I can in order to make up my mind. At the moment I think it is probably better if we stay in. My reasoning is
1. I like the idea of a united Europe, with all the peoples sharing a common set of laws, economic - but not necessarily a monetary - union, and support.

2. I dislike the Little Englander mentality of the opposition to European Union.

3. I am sure that Britain will do better as part of an economic block when facing the rest of the world.

4. I have seen nothing yet that convinces me that Britain will do better economically on its own.

5. Leaving the EU will almost undoubtedly encourage the Scots to vote to leave the UK. Something which would sadden me.

6. If the Scots decide to become independent after we leave the EU than we will be just a tiny little country in the world, with little clout either economically or culturally.

I basically believe, on what I currently know, that we should stay in the EU but I am not without criticism of it and could be persuaded - but not by arrogant white male Conservative MPs. Forgive me if anyone who doesn't fit that description has joined the CfB group but I have yet to see them.

I am loathe to quote the DM but that is where this article happens to be. Kate Hoey says "I am not anti-Europe per se – I am anti the unelected, absolute dictatorship that we have from the EU. I object in particular to the undemocratic Commission spending our money in whichever way it decides best."

I can agree with that. So please inform me, enlighten me but do not insult me by inferring that, if I come to any other conclusion than yours CfB, I do not support Britain. This name could have as many anti reactions to their side of the argument as it could have positive ones.

www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/denis-macshane/strange-silence-over-brexit

Another problem is that if Britain leaves, Germany is likely to become more powerful.

I will try and answer your points whitewave, but I am not anywhere near sure.

1. That is the point that I probably dislike the most about Europe.
A law does not necessarily suit all areas of Britain, let alone Europe.

2. But Scotland, and Wales and Northern Ireland have identities, so why not England.

5. I am not sure that that bothers me, if enough of them want to go. Better than fighting.

6. The population of Scotland is 5.2 mill. I dont know at what point the population of the UK was 5.2 million less, but I wouldnt have though it was much more than 20 years ago.

3. and 4. I am not sure it is going to make much difference either way. I could be wrong. But I dont think that a country is going to say, we will not buy whichever service, or maybe goods, just beacuse we are no longer in the EU.

Jen - I think that general elections are slightly different in that all parties are basically committed to maintaining our way of life in some measure. Things will tick along - some of it we will endorse, other things not. But making a decision about a single issue of such importance based on an absence of facts is a concern to me. And the mentality behind some of the attitudes to Europe (Little Englander as whitewave) says is pretty distasteful. I have just had my brother on the phone ranting about foreigners taking British jobs and I have to bite my tongue in the interests of family harmony!

dj. Why is it a bad think if Germany becomes more powerful?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036096.stm

Presumably there have not been proper figures since 2007.

I think that we will be bombarded with information from all sides nearer to the referendum. I dont think we will be short of statisitics and facts and tv and politicians and newspaper columns and comments from many sources, nearer the time.
We probably have at least 11 months of it to come.
I dont think that that will be an issue at all. We dont have to vote next week on this. We may well still be talking about it on gransnet a whole year from now.

Is that not why the EU came about, to stop any one country becoming over powerful?

Mishap, most people do not understand about politics in general, but it does not stop them having a vote in the general election.
DJ - how arrogant and patronising is that !
the European economic community (as envisaged in the immediate post- war period) was to prevent one country being over-powerful) but that is not what we have now

gracesgran yes the lack of democracy is certainly something I worry about with the EU. It is bad enough in this country!

Viewing the debate from afar (Australia) I feel that maintaining the status quo is the safest. The UK has the best of both worlds - in the EU but with its own currency.

I wish more people understood politics. I understand the need to vote conservative - to maintain values and institutions etc, but modern conservative leaders are more like the laissez-faire Liberals of old - hence the increasing divide between rich and poor, the business first attitudes, and the push to privatise..

I have maintained my labour roots in four countries and 7 decades of life, but it is based on reality as well as principles.

I think, therefore I vote!!

Good for you joan I am with you!!!!

Sorry, grannyonce, how is that arrogant or patronising?
Have you listened to people saying they do not understand about politics? Lots of people who are interviewed on the news say they do not understand.

However, fortunately they are given a vote. Otherwise we would have to have an exam to find out how much we understand and only be allowed a vote if we get over a certain percentage.
Oh, that is what happens to some people, isn't it? Those who pay over £1000 to become British citizens and have to sit an exam to show they understand our way of life.