Remembrance Day Ceremony

rosesarered, what a load of rubbish and a pathetic excuse to have yet another snipe , I haven't mentioned class or wealth . I have a friend who was a member of a choir, he has had to leave because of throat problems, should the choir be cancelled untill my friend either recovers or dies ?

The Queen will be 90 next year. I think she deserves a bit of consideration due to her age. And also the veterans who are getting on a bit now.
As for David Cameron, as Prime Minister what is wrong with him laying a wreath, it is not a day for politics, is it. The leader of the Oppostion then lays a wreath, and all other parties represented in Parliament.
Then many representatives from various organisations follow. It all seems fair to me.

So if the queen lives to be 100 the service will be shortened for a further eleven years ?

No it isn't a day for politics neither is it a day for the queen, it is a day for the country to pay tribute to the dead who died for their country

Anniebach Ceremonies in local towns are not like the cenotaph in London.
There is one in the nearest town to ours which is very dignified and moving and does not last for particularly long.
The town moved the war memorial from a dreadful 1960s square outside M&S to a specially created memorial garden square outside the library and the Victorian Town hall. That site is now beautiful and dignified it does not matter how long the ceremony is.

There are ceremonies at local war memorials in every village.

DC probably very disappointed the change isn't happening. If he was the only politician laying a wreath on his own it would have been a great photo opportunity. Much more effective than doing it in a crowd!

Nelliemoser, I do know the difference between the cenotaph service and town and village services, I also know each and everyone are held for one reason only, to honour the dead , not to honour old age

Every televised national event is politicised whether we like it or not, just as the race to be the first politician to be seen wearing the red poppy.

Whilst David Cameron would be representing the office of PM and not the Tory party I think it unrealistic to expect the other party leaders not to be afforded the same privilege.

It would be politically unacceptable for images of only Cameron laying a wreath to be all over the newspapers and TV news.

In the days of 'spin' that's just the way it is IMO.

Especially these last few years I always find myself almost holding my breath watching Prince Phillip negotiate those steps, backwards, in full uniform and with sword. Not because he is Royal just because he is an elderly gentleman.

The veterans are there to honour the dead, their comrades, as well, Anniebach; it becomes about them because they are still alive to be photographed and interviewed.

DH and I stood in Whitehall a few years ago waiting for the Remembrance ceremony to start. All the veterans had been mustered, standing in their places, for a long time before we got there. It takes a considerable amount of time to organise a large body of men and women for such a large parade and it was fairly obvious that some of the very elderly who were still parading were feeling very uncomfortable as it was bloody cold. One or two had to be taken off parade because they were suffering from the cold. Fortunately it was not raining. The parade is bigger now than it was. It used to be purely the three services and civilian elements such as the fire and ambulance services, but now there are many other organisations involved, so the whole thing takes a lot longer to get through. By the time it had finished, a lot of people around us in the crowd were feeling the strain, and we were comparative youngsters. I'm not making any comment about the politics of it, I'm just commenting on the logistics of it.

Well said, grumpaa and Greyduster those are my thoughts too.It may be that the service is not shortened after all, but I have every sympathy for those concerned.

My father, who turned 100 in April this year, was offered to chance to attend the ceremony at the Cenotaph. Part of the conditions were that he had to be able to "march for two miles then stand for two hours". He seriously considered doing it as he is quite capable of both the marching and the standing (although either myself or my brother would have had to accompany him marching as his eyesight is very poor now). The only reason he declined was the prospect that it might be raining. If the ceremony had been shorter I'm sure he would have gone.

"The veterans are there to honour the dead, their comrades" and they are the ones who actively remember exactly what it was like, and the faces of their comrades many years ago, and our head of state is of a similar age, and can also remember the years of war.

How can you complain that they shouldn't be there if they get tired and feel the cold? It sounds to me like bitching on principle about a head of state you don't approve of.

If it were a left-wing Prime Minister who was laying a wreath on behalf of the country, would you see that as better than DC laying it? He is after all the official head of the elected government of the day. Or is it only the head of your own favoured party who can qualify for that position? What happened to democracy?

I'm at a complete loss at some of the comments here. As far as I'm aware the PM of the day, whatever party he represents, has always laid the wreath on his/her own, followed by other party then country leaders. So to suggest that this is somehow an ego trip for David Cameron is clearly absurd. Surely it's not beyond even the SNP, to have just a little compassion for a very elderly stalwart old lady who has imo served this country admirably for most of her adult life. What a life sentence that has been, I wouldn't have wanted it in spite of all that wealth!! A lot of the veterans are now very old, but also very proud, and perhaps a tiny bit of consideration for them, bearing in mind what they did for us wouldn't go amiss. Annibach I find your comments inexplicable, but then I suppose I would! and before you jump at me my mother was one of those widows with a baby to support, on a very modest pension, and yes it was tough, you are right there. That is why when I see those gallant old men marching so proudly in honour of their dead comrades, my heart too swells with pride at how brave they were and humbled by the debt we undoubtedly owe them. It is about them, it is about the gallant young people who to this day put their lives on the line to defend this country. It is also a reminder of the horrors of war, the suffering and shocking waste of lives young and old, so to all you veterans past and present, I for one shall salute you.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it would be different if it was a left wing PM. I objected because it all seemed to happen very quickly and without any real discussion with the others. Discussion with all concerned is a key element of democracy, especially for such an emotive Ceremony. All wars are political and, by default, all Remembrance Ceremonies carry an element of politics in them, international, national or party. In this case DC, as PM, 'agreed' with the Queen that he should be the sole politician to lay a wreath on his own. Whether this was to save her discomfort or for less noble reasons only he can say. I accept that that is a role the PM of the day carries out. So too, up to now, do the leaders of the other main parties lay their wreath on their own. I have watched this ceremony over the years and I can't see that those leaders doing it together saves that much time. The main concern for the Veterans is their age and of course consideration should be given to that. Most of our generation are very grateful they made the sacrifice so that we could live in freedom. Those freedoms though have to be jealously guarded, as once lost, they will be that much harder for future generations to get back.

Well maybe D.C. did have some hideous devious politic agenda here, I doubt it, but how would I know?! But as far as I'm concerned is it not beyond everyone to have just one day in the year that people could leave politics at home, and actually think about what might be best for other, mainly elderly, often infirmed members of society instead of turning even this into a political one upmanship circus.

How sad that politics has to be dragged into this.

In fact, not sad, disgusting imo.

Elegran, I said nothing about political parties, all I am saying is the service is for the country to remember and honour the dead , no other reason for it, yes the veterans fought, so did the men and women in wars and conflicts since.

I find some here are being hypocritical , first to shout we must honour our traditions - I am all for abandoning quite a few - but no problem with messing around with one of our most important traditions, honouring the dead of wars and conflicts

I objected because it all seemed to happen very quickly and without any real discussion with the others
Do we know that though Devorgilla?

There is so much organisation behind an event like this I cannot believe that the Palace, the Royal British Legion, Veterans' Associations and all other organisations involved were not consulted and did not know of and approve in advance any slight change in the arrangements.

Politicians are there to lay the wreaths on behalf of their parties and fall in line with what has been decided.

This proposed alteration was nothing to do with messing about with tradition, but everything to do with compassion for very elderly proud men and women who are nearing the end of their lives, and who served this country well, rising above political affiliation. This includes our Queen, who has always without fail, risen to the occasion, whoever and whatever was asked of her. She is now nearly 90 years old, her husband of nearly 70 years, now aged 94, so surely a little consideration and compassion could be shown both to them and to those gallant folk whose like we won't see again, without turning it into a political snarling match. FGS, does every common denominator boil down to politics?!

At least Jeremy Corbyn seems to be happy to fall in with whatever has been decided.
It is the other leaders of the other smaller parties who are creating a fuss.

I agree rosequartz, obviously this would have to have been discussed and decided upon with the appropriate people, not just pulled out of the hat. But, surprise, surprise, backs are up and hackles raised, so common sense and compassion have to give way to, 'politics'!!!

Yes, I will grant J.C. that. It's a pity the SNP don't pack their goods and chattles and buzz off back to Scotland and stay there! Let's hope there's another opportunity soon, and this time not a lost one!!

I think the men and women in all more recent conflicts would agree on being considerate to veterans, and honouring the dead was still planned.

Anniebach I agree that you said nothing about class or political parties - it was Devorgilla who thought that "other parties more representative of that group". ie not DC, should have the opportunity to place wreaths - (not that it appeared that any other classes/parties were being excluded, just all acting in unison instead of separately, and in addition to the PM)

It was Devorgilla I was referring to when asking whether a left-wing PM would have been OK as a wreath-layer (but you are so firmly established in the collective GN mind as a champion of the left and the working class that it would not be surprising if I had meant you.

nigglynellie
They are doing all they can to encourage that view I think!! Making themselves as much of a nuisance as possible until we all say bugger off back to Scotland the lot of you how about another referendum?

It's not about the egos of Salmand et al (his ego needs pricking anyway, I have a good hatpin here).
It's about the veterans and those who served, including the Queen.