Cameron - friend of Muslim women?

Whilst on MN a week or so ago someone posted a link to an article about life in Afghanistan for women in the 1950s/60s and '70s, what it showed was quite breathtaking, women at university lectures, mixed graduations, uncovered heads, mothers in parks with their children, women shopping all going freely about their business generally, wearing the clothes of the time. Whilst I suspect that in rural areas it may have been different what it illustrated was a society that was not so different to our own, now it's a million miles apart. It also occurred to me that many of first generation Pakistani Indian sub continent immigrants to our country, after a period of time assimilated. We have to accept for various reasons there has been a metamorphosis back to a hard line and intransigent form of Islam which is very much at odds with our society, which I don't perceive was there from the outset. I think whoever is in power, be it right or left curbs need to be put into place to make sure that insidious practices don't become the norm here. Cameron's initiative does feed into a wider picture.

I'd like to think we could "win hearts and minds" but I don't know how you can convince deeply ingrained male retrograde attitudes hell bent on subjugating their female population from such an early age to change.

I completely agree with thatbags assertion about having regard for the cultural norms. To flout them shows a disrespect/disdain for the host country, not by the cowed women, but often by the arrogant men. Westerners living in Muslim cultures know that they have to abide by the draconian laws of say Saudi, or pay the penalty that's it no if's, or buts!

thatbags, read his speech and I did not say it was the women's fault , his words could easily be taken as such , why mention anything other than the scheme is set up to help women learn to speak English, and he needs to visits universities around the country and speak to the Muslim women studying in them

TerriBull This is a thread where some people disagree with Cameron on this issue. If you wish to call it "Cameron-bashing", so be it, but there has been plenty of "Corbyn bashing" on other threads. You perceive Gransnetters on the left to be more vocal on various threads than those on the right. That may or may not be so - without examining and logging every contribution it would be difficult to say. However, even if that were to be the case, nobody is stopping anybody from posting. Perhaps some people don't feel strong enough to comment, or only comment on issues that affect them personally.

I disagree entirely with Cameron's stance on this and I don't know how everyone is so well versed on how Muslim families operate. When I re-trained as an adult literacy teacher, my class consisted, I would say, of around 80% Muslim women. They didn't appear to me to be particularly oppressed. They were not professional, middle class women but were cheerful and chatty and keen to learn. My next door neighbour is of Pakistani origin and she is a very assertive woman who takes an active role in her children's school (the same non-denominational school my son went to many years ago), helping with school fetes, etc. There are no doubt people within different communities - not just Muslim communities - whose ideas in some areas conflict with our own. I don't think singling out a particular community is at all helpful. English language classes should be available to anyone who needs them. It was this government that stopped them.

I agree with Nelliemoser, in order to connect with people and encourage them to become more engaged in mainstream society, you don't do that with constant criticism and threats.

thatbags and anniebach the article's in The Times which I don't subscribe to so I can't give a direct quote. I believe what he said was that inability to speak English led to segregation and this encouraged (or could encourage?) radicalism. He also admitted that funding for community-based English classes was severely cut two years ago. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any convincing evidence that inability to speak English leads to radicalism. The people going off to Syria seem mainly to be well educated, British born. Ditto the terrorists operating in and around Europe; locally born and/ or locally educated. One Muslim woman on Radio 4 said, 'Who is advising him?'.

Eloethan I think the idea is to get to the sort of women who didn't go to your classes surely? There seems to be quite a large percentage of women who don't speak English and they presumably are the target.

I can see why it is possible that women who don't speak English and are not integrated could be persuaded into radicalisation if the only people they communicate with are of that mind. Surely if a person can understand radio, TV and newspapers they are more likely to have a wider viewpoint? I have no idea if this has happened but can see the possibility.

Thanks, nelliem. The trouble I have is that I'm not sure "community leaders" are always the right people to talk to. I accept what you're saying in general terms, but I still think that more onus is on immigrants to an alien culture to engage with the new one. I felt this when I was an immgrant in an alien culture myself so please don't suppose that it's something I wouldn't apply (haven't applied) to myself as well as others. It's the basis of the old adage: When in Rome do as the Romans do. It's an important idea.

I am not, of course, criticising people who, for whatever reason, cannot engage very well in the way I've suggested. I honestly think that it's a very tricky problem that Cameron's idea is attempting to tackle. I honestly think there is goodwill behind what he has announced and a real attempt to improve things in this country. I guess the thing is that I don't immediately assume something is a bad idea just because it has come from a Tory.

ab, I've read what Cameron said. I don't agree that what he said can "easily" be interpreted in the way you say. I think that interpretation is a distortion of what he said. I guess we just have to agree to differ on that.

Does anyone know how much the NHS spends per year on interpreters?

I can remember reading it was a huge amount but I can't remember exactly. Surely this is money that could be/should be better spent.

I was talking to DH about this earlier, and he said that when he was a student in Manchester in the 60s, his best friend was the child of a German Jewish couple who had left Germany just before the outbreak of WW2. Even after 30 years, his mother was not comfortable in English. I also remember when I was a teacher, it was quite common for Chinese parents to bring their children along as interpreters to meetings. This problem is not new, but that doesn't mean that ways should not be found to help. Living abroad myself, I found that it was quite difficult to integrate into Swiss society other than at a very superficial level - partly because I lived and worked in an English environment. Similarly these women will, naturally enough, look for help and support from women of their own culture. I went to German lessons, and to start I was much quicker than the others to understand structures, grammar etc BUT they soon passed me by because they were working in a Swiss environment and being immersed in the language all day. My sons, who went to school there, became fluent: my husband and I never would. This is always the way with 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.

gillybob a quick Google did not produce any current costs for the whole of the UK. I'll have another look to see whether I can find any more figures - there were some for a few years ago, which I shall post if I can't find any more recent.

However, for Scotland "The bill for paying interpreters has more than doubled in less than a decade, from £1.9million in 2006 to £4.9million in 2014.

Over the same period, the foreign-born population increased from 230,000 to 370,000, putting additional pressure on hospitals, GPs and other NHS services.

The national total, which also includes the cost of providing British Sign Language for deaf patients, works out at close to £14,000 per day."

So there could be a financial advantage to teaching the English language to incomers - as well as the advantage to them of being able to speak to shop-keepers, GPs and schoolteachers, and being able to answer the phone in their own home.

Sorry, I should have included a link to that. www.express.co.uk/scotland/585896/NHS-translation-bill-new-heights

^"Trusts spent £23.3 million pounds on translation services last year.
The NHS has spent £64.4 million on translation services in the last three financial years, a £9.4 million (17%) increase from 2007/8 – 2009/10.
This amount equates to a staggering £59k per day."^

The three financial years mentioned run from 2008 to 2011. The cost is probably higher now.

To read the whole report (very interesting, lots of detail about the responses by different Trusts and so on), search Google for nhs interpreter costs and select the PDF "Lost in translation"

A quote from it:-
"Is catering to non-native English speakers actually serving them in good stead, or are we perpetuating a system in which they are ostracized from the greater English-speaking community by dis-incentivizing them to learn English? Zia Haider Rahman, a Bangladeshi human rights lawyer in Tower Hamlets in the East End of London, says the provision of translation and interpretation is actually damaging to his community.

"They are doing harm because they are reinforcing the language barrier which separates this community from the rest of Britain. They are de-incentivising Bangladeshis from learning English,” says Mr. Rahman.

A woman who doesn’t speak a word of English despite having lived in Tower Hamlets for 22 years, brought up another important point - the direct oppression of some minority women by their family members through language isolation. She explained that many girls are brought over as wives from Bangladesh, her country of origin, and are isolated by their men who do not want them to integrate.

“Women are not being allowed to learn English because if they go out the husband fears they will be corrupted, that she will gain courage and she will learn how to operate in this country. There should be a law that requires these newcomers to learn English and that stops their families from preventing them learn English,” she says.

As some are into criticism of the Muslim population I would like your opinion on the follow -

We have regiments of Gurkha's here, many lived in the married quarters , more came in so new houses were built in the town , they had to be together so a small estate was built. The husbands accompany the wives to every doctors appointment, when their babies are born the midwives accept it is their custom to have the entire family in the delivery room, mothers, mothers in law, close friends , parents evening at school both parents turn up but only the husband asks questions , the wives remain silent. The wives cover up in public even in summer .

There is another group of self segregated people to be criticised , just to give you a break from Muslims.

The difference is we accept them and their customs , we do not and never have asked them to or insisted they do , it works

The basic problem is integration. As things stand many ethnic minorities live in the same area because it is easy to find shops where the assistants speak the same languages. There's doctors at the local health centre, teachers at the local schools who speak their language. Their children speak English and can act as interpreters. I live near Coventry which was multicultural when I moved there in 1975. None of this is new. I taught literacy, numeracy and ICT in adult education too and classes always included women whose first language wasn't English. They wanted to be integrated - at least as much as they wanted to be. Some wanted to be involved in their children's education. Some wanted to access further education themselves (two were doctors). Each had their own reasons for learning to speak English.

One of the key points is these were not ESOL classes. The ESOL classes where always oversubscribed and mainly in the evening. So these women joined other classes as a way to help them with their English.

This government removed the funding for most adult education. The demand for ESOL classes never went away, but most of the funding did. David Cameron is announcing funding for some educational purposes. It's not even that much money. Why single out Muslim women? Well, it's what the public want to hear isn't it?

If he wants immigrants to learn to speak English, it should be properly funded. Then those immigrants can help contribute to society in their own way. Some will work within their own communities, some outside, many will do both. But it should not be a political football.

Interesting posts from nonnie, badenkate, and elegran. It is good to read posts that are to the point but not overtly politicised.

Those who like to categorise as left-wing or right-wing, please leave some room in the centre ground for those of us who sometimes agree with a so-called left-wing idea, sometimes a so-called right-wing one, and sometimes with ideas that strike us as problem solving approaches which, given a chance, might work. They also might not work but how would one know that without experimenting?

In reply to wilma's mention of cuts to ESOL funding: "The PM acknowledged cuts had been made to free language classes for immigrants during the last Parliament, but said the new £20m fund was "more targeted".
(from the Independent)

Eloethan can I just say that when I posted, I did stress the "some" Given the overall Muslim population of the world runs into billions, I do not regard them as a homogeneous mass and don't for one moment think all their women are under the thumb. On the contrary a Muslim mum who I was friends with from my children's schooldays, a Malaysian married to a Scot, I remember as a free spirit who spent most hot summer days in shorts, I could never imagine her being under anyone's thumb. Similarly I don't doubt that the women you taught, didn't fit that bill either. I really was not trying to imply that I think ALL Muslim women suffer at the hands of their menfolk. Nevertheless, it can hardly escape anyone's notice that there are women within SOME Muslim communities that do not enjoy the freedom that their fellow female citizens have and I imagine they are the ones that Cameron is trying to reach out to.

As far as "not feeling strongly enough to comment" the Cologne sexual assaults on German women really ought to provoke a reaction whatever one's political persuasion is and I felt that some of GN more prolific posters were conspicuous by their absence. On MN , the last time I looked on that issue it had run into 5 threads.

A good idea is always a good idea, no matter who proposed it.

I, and many others, did comment on the Cologne sex assault.

Badenkate I think you made the point well that you never fully integrated and spoke the language because you were working in an English speaking environment. Presumably if you had socialised with the local Swiss you would have become more fluent?

DS studied in English in Lausanne but socialised with the French speaking students and quickly became fluent. He later worked in Germany for a year, again in an English speaking environment but didn't like the job and learnt only enough German to get by. Since then he has lived in The Netherlands, where everyone seems to speak English and his work is in English. He loved NL from the very beginning and quickly became fluent, married a Dutch girl and now seems to be more Dutch than English.

If someone makes a permanent move to a country surely they should be expected to speak the language and integrate? It is different if it is only a temporary stay but I don't understand why they come if they don't want to be part of their chosen country?

Thanks Bags it is nice that someone doesn't decide for me which party I support. Especially as I don't really support any of them, like some bits or all and dislike other bits.

I'm just not sure that non-integration is the cause of radicalisation. Is there any evidence? It's an easy thing to blame - but of course some of our home-grown terrorists have been converts and not from one of the traditional Muslim communities.
Cause of radicalisation might well be a combination of sophisticated on-line marketing by da-esh combined with teenaged cluelessness.
Language is such a tricky and emotive issue within families. My aunt's friend speaks fluent Mandarin and Cantonese as well as perfect English. Her English husband would not let her pass on the Chinese languages to their kids. Bet they wish he had. Also the grandmother who does not share a language with her grandkids. So men bullying wives over languages is not something confined to one ethnic group.

thatbags I am not at all sure either that all the community leaders would want to do this, but if the women are in families where the male is very awkward about what the women in the family do a woman could potentially be at risk of harm if she brings shame on the family by defying his wishes.

May be there, you put a duty on the men to ennsure that the wives etc attend such meetings with fines etc if they don't There really is no easy solution. Stop using interpreters maybe.

That lawyer and Yasmin Allibah Brown have a point.

Fines? It would have it be made law first surely ? Everyone must speak English

thatbags yes, he did say the last parliament made the cuts.

The bit I object to is 'more targeted'. The service should be available to all non-English speakers who come to live in the UK - as it was before - because they are all immigrants. It also helps with integration.

It shouldn't be a fund because I know only too well from my public sector days that funds can run out or not be renewed leaving people in need. Also, in my extensive experience of working in the public sector, setting up a fund is not the best way to make good use of money. It's heavy on paperwork for one thing and relies on someone knowing the best way to successfully apply for government funding. What tends to happen is, in an attempt to localise services, the money is not always well spent. In the early stages applications are much more likely to be successful than those made later on when money is running short - and the criteria are tightened. This happens at all levels and again, leaves people in need. A fund is particularly vulnerable to changes of government too.

I could go on, but basically basic adult education classes, including learning to speak English should be freely available everywhere. The responsibility used to lie with the local government education departments. In my day it was call Community Education and regulated with C&G qualified (minimum) tutors and volunteers, but I can imagine that not being the case with fund initiatives.

Most people whose first language is not English want to speak it before learning to read and write it. Learning English happens in stages. Immigrants often want to be in the company of English speakers, not other immigrants learning English. This is a big step towards integration, but there's no co-ordination of the provision of services here.

£20 million sounds a lot, but it's not really. This is a welcome step, but it's still a token gesture and I don't care how political this sounds, it's an attempt to keep voters on side. It's throwing them a bone (in my eyes).

I guess that tax payers,as it's their money, would not want to fund an open ended committment for teaching foreign immigrants to speak English.By targeting Muslim women for this £20 mill ( agree it's not a lot) the government thinks this group needs it most.Other immigrants will have to pay for lessons at nightschool.