Cameron - friend of Muslim women?

I think Islamist ideology does need to be 'targeted' and reformed and I think that is what is at the bottom of this project, so I don't think directing some funds at helping Muslim women to integrate better is a bad idea. Whether this particular project does any good cannot be judged until it has run its course. I've no problem with healthy scepticism about its practicality. My comments have been really about pointing out what I think are incorrect interpretations of motive.

jess the calm down remark, positioned as it was alongside a link (two links really), was pointed at the media, not posters on this thread. Do calm down, dear ?

Change 'reformed' to challenged, though I think the religion Islam needs reformed and modernised as well.

I agree that the link between Muslim women who are not well integrated into wider British society and extreme Islamist ideas is not clear. Cameron pointed that out too: he said that there was "no causal connection". But I think I get where he's coming from on this: it's well known that educating women is what makes the most difference to changes in attitudes and ideas. I think there will be more such projects and 'challenges' to come.

I do hope so thatbags! Good posts.

Yes, good posts thatbags. I agree we need to be able to challenge some Islamic ideology. I live in one of the areas you refer to JessM, where the practice of bringing in spouses from the villages the original mill workers came from in the 50's is well established. It may be one of what you call "a handful of areas" but that doesn't mean problems can simply be dismissed. I don't wish to be inflammatory but there is a larger than usual population of children with birth defects, it seems as a result of marriages between close relatives. There is definitely a problem with domestic abuse within closed communities of any kind. If you add to that the issue of very young women from rural areas arriving in cold, wet northern England where opportunities to learn the language, mid with the general population and find work are reducing by the day - there's a problem.
My own feeling is that there was more mixing in the 60's than there is now.

In the sixties posters were in some Windows - no blacks, no dogs, in the fifties - no Irish, no dogs , before world war 2 there was - no Jews

In 2012 the NHS spent £64,000 a day on translators, or £23 million a year. That will be far more four years later. Put the cost of providing language classes against this.

I agree that Muslim women are not the only incomers who need a basic knowledge of the English language, and he would have been better not to mention them in particular. Perhaps he had done a sum on providing free classes for all and decided that it was just not financially possible? There has been enough comment on the probable cost of this proposal, I don't think free English classes for all would have been very well received - and how many teachers would be needed?

I do feel that all non-English-speaking immigrants should have a requirement to learn the language within a couple of years of arriving. If they can't speak the language, they can't go shopping, socialise or seek employment and they will be forced to mix only with their own. I've always made a point that when I go abroad, even on holiday, I master enough of the language to make myself clearly understood, whether it's to communicate with hotel and restaurant staff, deal with emergencies or shopping, but I try to learn enough to be able to pass the time of day, as I would in my own environment; it's only courtesy! I get so cross with the ignorant types who go abroad and feel that if we talk loudly enough and talk down to the inhabitants they'll accept our superiority!

Wish holiday makers would give north Wales the same respect

Would just like to say that DS lived in Switzerland, Germany and now The Netherlands and none of those countries offered him free language lessons.

Elegran the reason Moslem women were specifically mentioned was the conflation of not speaking English with radicalisation which raised hackles all round.I don't see how anyone could reasonably object to language classes being provided for immigrants (although if you look at some of the comments on other forums, lots do). I think it's highly unlikely that any meaningful costing has been attempted, particularly on the basis of savings to the NHS and social services. Lifelong learning of all kinds is nearly always undervalued.

There are many volunteer groups around the country trying to help incomers to settle in. Perhaps spending money on training some of them to teach the language free would be a good investment?

I don't think anyone has discussed how to get the women to go to the classes. If they are living in the environment some suggest how do we get to them to persuade them to join the classes?

If their husbands are very conservative they will not be allowed to attend. Blimey who'd want to live like that?

It's typical Cameron spin. Cut budgets to education everywhere and then announce a huge spend on some speciality. One of the ways Muslim women have learned English in the past is through their children and through contact with their children's schools. It wasn't the best system and it could have done with a lot more funding, but it was a way of making contact and encouraging socialisation. Now there isn't any money in schools for ESL teaching and children struggle.

There used to be many voluntary projects all over the country, Elegran as well as home tutoring schemes so women didn't have to go out to classes. They involved a lot of background work engaging the support of communities and they had untold benefits because of the real friendships that developed and the mutual understanding that was encouraged. They were quite economical to run, because of being the model you suggest. I'm not sure that it could be revived, though. Pity.

When this broke on the BBC TV news they only interviewed women who had learnt or were learning English and it was all very positive. Is there a way that these women could be encouraged to teach those from their communities who do not come forward so easily?

It takes imagination, rapport with the women and planning - plus money is very useful stuff.

Nonnie the fact your DS wasn't offered language classes doesn't mean they weren't available. Before the funding was cut here in the UK, classes weren't offered either. The demand for places always exceeded the supply and there were waiting lists for evening classes in particular. Women made up the majority of the students during the day for most types of courses and the venues very varied. Often classes were held at the school their children attended and child care was provided for younger children. Classes were offered where they seemed best placed in the community and could be single sex too.

Community education was a large part of the local authority's education department. The removal of the funding not only removed the learning opportunities, a whole infrastructure was dismantled with a lot of job losses. I'm not sure if some people on this thread appreciate the community services that have been lost through cuts in funding, services that existed for decades. Many of these services had multiple purposes like education and integration, the very services we need now more than ever.

I would be the first to admit the administration and management of the Community Service education provision were I worked was chaotic (for many reasons). The whole system needed reforming, but to reduce it to virtually nothing was a short sighted decision that probably was an easy target to save money. The problem now is the infrastructure has gone, so a lot of the new funding will disappear in admin costs, or maybe outsourcing costs if the services are offered to private companies. I don't envy the decisions local authorities have to had to make in the last decade or so. Rock. Hard place.

I am of the belief that when Muslim women live in this country they should enjoy its benefits and its freedoms. I loathe the fact that many Muslim women are oppressed by the males in their culture. Oh they are 'revered' but only if they toe the line, know their place and are happy to be chained to the kitchen sink, looking after their menfolk and keeping their faces covered.

How can we be happy that men living in this country lack enlightenment?

Integration is key to peace and there will never be integration when in certain parts of society women are subjected to medieval norms. It's wholly out of step with western ideals. Learning to speak English, to communicate and express their opinions has to be a massive step in the right direction for Muslim women in the UK. How on earth can anyone object to Cameron's plans?

It's sad that there has to be legislation to ensure women are able to attend language classes, but it is right imo that all people settling here should learn to communicate. One has to hope that articulate women in Islam may one day bring about the cultural reforms so badly needed to enable multiculturalism to work in the UK at all levels.

Wilma you may be right regarding Germany and Switzerland but my Dutch friend said it is not provided there. They also don't provide documentation in several languages. She was very surprised at how much we do for people coming to live here.

As I said in a previous post DS learnt French and Dutch very quickly because he was motivated to do so. He didn't learn German because he didn't like his job or the city he lived in.

I don't understand why people who choose to live in the UK don't think they should learn about us and our language without being given so much help. Surely the onus should be on them, not us? I can think of so many more important ways we could spend the money rather than on lessons, interpreters, printing etc.

Iam64 only trying to highlight that the issue of Muslim brides who do not speak English is not spread evenly across the country and mostly concentrated in the areas where there was immigration from rural areas. If I recall parts of the East End and parts of N England. What may be generally true in those areas, may not be valid generalisation elsewhere. e.g. where I live most Muslim women are either students or the wives of students.
Where I lived before, there was a small Bangladeshi community and a small Pakistani community, with a whole range of Muslim women from other backgrounds living across the city and living more integrated lives.
Delivering anything via volunteers is not as easy as they have to be recruited, trained, organised, supported and monitored. I think it is a good way though of introducing a Muslim family to someone from another part of the community. But maybe not enough to get someone fluent in a difficult language.
Annie - mae Cymraeg yn iath annod, fel Saesneg. As long as the visitors are polite and friendly it's a bit OTT to expect them to learn a bit of Welsh before coming here. After all the service staff are bilingual in 2 tricky languages. And their business is more than welcome.

As Oprah Winfrey says: Educate the women.

I am in favour of inclusion, not exclusion and don't begrudge the cost of translation services, especially when it comes to printed matter. But in general, I think it has been made easy to live in the UK and not learn English.

We can talk about this until the cows come home, but the truth is only women have the ability to reform Islam and it may take several generations. Learning English is a good start. How can mothers raise their sons differently in the UK than if they were still back in their country of birth if they don’t have the words?

I do not believe in single sex faith schools or free schools and think they should be shut down with no more allowed to open. It is one of the worst ideas in recent times to allow schools to opt out of the national curriculum or to only teach about their own religion.

JessM I accept your earlier comments were made in good faith and apologise if I sounded grumpy in my response. I do feel the former mill towns are struggling and often ignored or sneered at (not for a second suggesting you were sneering)

The red door debate today highlighted the fact that some northern towns have far more than their "fair share" of asylum seekers, resulting in all kinds of difficulties for the current population and those seeking asylum. The news this evening confirmed that the south east has far fewer asylum seekers than the north west (Bolton, Rochdale, Blackburn) and areas in the north east (middlesborough etc) where employment opportunities are dire but housing is cheap. Our public services have been slashed, tory councils in the south have fared better. it's just wrong. We have an active 'welcome to refugee" committee in our town, lots of work is going on and our council has always been good in supporting asylum seekers. But, our front line services, many excellent family centres are being closed. Schools in our poor/low rent areas are struggling with an influx of children for whom English is a language to be learned from scratch. We have a great centre here for children arriving with no English, a growing band of delightful children (in my experience)

I fully accept that the women who have gone to Daesh are largely educated 2nd or 3rd generation and with fluent English. Despite that, I don't criticise Cameron for the attempt to offer English language lessons - i just wish he hadn't cut existing, excellent services.

It wasn't the women who have gone to Daesh that Cameron was talking about, it was non-English-speaking women, some of whom may be the mothers of children who might at some time be targetted by recruiters for Daesh. If they can't speak the same language as their children and those recruiters, how are they to know what's going on?