Cameron - friend of Muslim women?

You don't know a lot, Annie except what's going on in your bubble.
Re. Non Spanish living in Spain. If you need a translator YOU pay for it.
If you want decent health care YOU pay for it. If you have children in school, YOU for it.
Basically, what I'm telling you, is, when you live abroad you PUT A LOT INTO THE ECONOMY. Unlike some who come to this country and just take.
I have lived in 2 other countries so I know a little bit about it.

Why is there this need to want people to integrate , I have a nephew who is an estate agent in Spain, not all British migrants integrate there, some ask for areas were the majority are English . My sister in law gave an interview to the Sunday times on her decision to build and live in a house Turkey, she was asked why she chose an area where she had no English neighbours ,

It is natural to choose to live with people of your own culture and who speak your mother tongue , not everyone does but many do.

The report yesterday of immigrants having their homes attacked simply because they are immigrants , hardly an invite to integrate

Petra, I live in a bubble whilst you are so worldly, I am in awe

This is the United Kingdom Annie and we celebrate integration. All other migrants, from the Normans, to the Hugenots, to those escaping Hilter, or brought over on the Windrush or chucked out of Uganda, have managed to integrate.

Indeed the Chinese now make the best fish and chips and Chicken Tiki Marsala is a national dish.

Integration is good IM H O

That doesn't mean to say that their culture has to disappear. Yesterday was Chinese New Year, The Nottinghill Festival celebrates something or other, Hogmany, Burns Night (next Monday) and Hallowe'en have moved south, Eid and Diwali are certainly celebrated around here.

Any excuse for a party....and why not??

Viva la difference and viva unité

The way that British abroad in Spain and other places can completely ignore the language and the ways of the people they live amongst is an annoyance to Spaniards and shows a bad attitude by the expats. It is not something that should be encouraged here. If I lived in a Welsh-speaking area of Wales I would try to learn some Welsh. I moved from the South of England to Fife - what they speak there is a language very similar to English but with a lot of words that hark back centuries. I learnt pretty quickly to know and use many of these.

Integration doesn't mean giving up their own traditions, and becoming identical to their hosts, it means taking a step (or two) toward the ways and language of the country you have moved to - presumably for life and not just a short stay.

We do not celebrate integration Anya, the first arrivals on the windrush arrived in 1948, in the sixties we still had signs in Windows - no blacks, no dogs, look at the census returns and read - Irish Row,in towns throughout the country, again signs - no Irish. The Jews were welcomed after the war, what of before? Yes - no Jews

Yesterday a report that immigrants homes were being attacked , easily found because the company who rents the property's had painted the doors red.

Do you intergrate with the travelling community ? Let us not pretend, whilst there are British people who are willing to accept immigrants racism is still strong in this country

Elegran sums it up and I agree , the British do not willingly intergrate in other countries , yet Petra told me I was living in a bubble because I said the very same. She based this criticism on the fact she had lived in other countries I have not. I do listen to people, children and grandchildren of the windrush generation is one example . After several decades they had trouble buying houses, would make an appointment to view, turn up, decide to buy the property but suddenly the property had been sold by the time they got back to the estate agents, it is not I who live in a bubble

And we accept the Chinese because they make good fish and chips !

I do know some who are racist and want to send people back 'where they came from' (happily not many) but I'm not talking about individuals Annie im talking about us, as Brits, as a nation(s?)

I deplore the way some Brits don't choose to integrate into Spanish life, as an example, and I've witnessed it and know they are missing out on so much. But they are not an example to follow.

'We' as a nation, invited the people on the Windrush over here, gave a home to the Ugandan refugees and those fleeing Hitler. Don't denigrate that side of Britain.

Anyway, the GC won't pick themselves up from school so I'm off now and I'll hear many, many languages spoken in the playground as I wait with others, so that's a good sign

I don't know where many of you grew up. I grew up in Southeast London. In the 50s and 60s this was areal melting pot of nationalities, but I don't remember any problems, was that because I was a child?
One thing I do remember very clearly was that the West Indian population, the Irish and Chinese mixed in with all of us but the Asian community kept themselves very much to themselves.

Why did London have signs in Windows stating no blacks, no dogs , and they did , to say no is denial

Anya,the government brought the windrush people , there was heavy labouring work needed, we as a nation did not welcome them

I can only speak about where I came from, Woolwich.

I think everybody is in agreement that if someone wants to come to live in this country, then they must learn English. I don't see anyone saying anything different to that.

But that's where the agreement stops.

The sticking point seems to be that some posters don't think the tax payer should pay for them to learn English. No information should be provided in any language other than English. If their English is not good enough, they should provide translators for any services they want to access. Basically they have to integrate to our society, but at their own cost.

Does that sound about right?

Forget all about how important the contribution immigrants make to the economy is to the government meeting its financial targets. This is a quote from an article in the New Statesman last year -

The unfashionable truth is that the UK now needs immigrants more than ever. An Office of Budget Responsibility report two years ago bluntly spelled out the choice facing the UK. All other things being equal, the OBR predicted that high net migration would result in public sector net debt at 73% of GDP by 2062-3. With zero net migration it would double, to 145%, compared to 79.1% today. This is because immigrants are hard-working – those who arrived since 2000 have been 43% less likely than natives to receive state benefits or tax credits – highly educated and are more likely to be of working age than the native British population. It is no coincidence that as the Conservatives have moved ever further away from their pledge to reduce net migration beyond 100,000 – the most recent annual figure for net migration was a cool 298,000 – so growth has returned to the economy, nor that the economy is doing best in the capital, where immigration is highest. You can have a “clampdown” on immigration or you can have economic growth – but no one has worked out how to have both.

Like it or not, the UK needs immigrants and it's in our interests to help them integrate even if it costs money.

Why does Little Englander keep coming into my mind when I read some posts on this thread?

Where on earth do you get that idea from Annie? I accept that certain people (and there will always be people like that) were unwelcoming, and some people who had not met or worked with black people before might initially have been wary, but it certainly wasn't the majority.

It's always the few, like those minority that out signs in their windows, who get remembered.

I, too, wonder if you perhaps witnessed this where you grew up? Unlike Petra we had very few black or asian kids near us where we grew up, but the few we had were just accepted, except by the odd bigot, who sadly will always be with us.

Petra well put, in Spain people who go contribute and not take out. as for Anya's nephew saying that the English want to live in English communities, that is up to the Spanish if they don't like like, I personally would not be so arrogant as to expect the locals to learn my language if I had to deal with Spanish people,but as immigrants are adding to the economy and not taking it out doubt it would be a problem. I doubt many people gonto Spain and get a council house, free health care, education, translators etc etc. It is not just about Muslms, it is all people coming here to settle. It is not rascist its to have a big of common sense about the problem, and it is a problem. How far do you want to go back about in fairs to this country, the dark ages perhaps, what is noticeable that despite many people settling her and integrating well through work, the language is still English as it is in so many countries.

Wima I think I may be one of the people you are referring to and I don't see why the contributions immigrants make is relevant. They are paying in just as the rest of us are for the same things, schools, health, roads etc. How does that make spending money on teaching English, translating public documents into several languages and providing translators fair? I still maintain that we should do as some other countries do and let them show they want to live here by making their own arrangements. There are so many other areas where people do not have a choice on which this money could be spent.

"contributing to the economy" is not the same as spending money in it. Tourists and people with second homes may help the economy but they don't "contribute" in the usual sense this is used.
"Contributing" is doing a useful job, paying your taxes and encouraging your children to do likewise. A huge number of immigrants start businesses and create jobs. I suspect they are far more entrepreneurial than the anglo-saxons. So that is another way they "contribute'.

If immigrants and the children of immigrants downed tools for a day how many crucial things would grind to an instant halt?
The NHS
London Transport
Thousands of hotels.
in fact
London - where immigrants fill many essential jobs that would be unfilled without their efforts.

Yes, Nonnie you are one of the posters I was thinking of and tbh your reply shows how far apart we probably are in our thinking. Their contribution is relevant because firstly we need it to lift us out of the current financial situation and secondly because they're less of a drain on the economy than native Britons. I know many people perceive immigrants as a drain on the economy, but the truth is they are less likely to be claiming benefits, living in social housing, etc. than people born here. Overall as a group immigrants pay in more than they take out and that means we all pay less in the end. Is the benefits system under strain? Are public services including the NHS under strain? Yes, to both questions. But that's not because of immigration, it's because of the decisions made by government and not just the current government.

Another unpopular fact is that one of the reasons the UK doesn't have limits on migration, isn't because it forgot or didn't think about it when the agreement was signed. It's because along with Ireland and Sweden, the UK wanted to make it easier for workers to move here, to choose the UK over other EU countries so our economy benefited instead of another's.

That's why we should make them welcome. We want them to be contributing as much and quickly as possible, otherwise we're cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Those who want immigrants to pay for their own lessons seem to be forgetting that asylum seekers are immigrants, do not have money very often, and are not allowed to work here until their status has been ascertained and refugee status granted. Even then they are not always allowed to get work.
How are they to pay for their lessons?

Signs in Windows stating no blacks were not the mi privy, I suggest you read of the lead up to the Race discrimination act of 1965 followed by a strengthened if the act in 1968.

No we didn't have the problem in South Wales , more reading - the miners of South Wales and Paul Robson, South Wales had long accepted black workers because of the pits . We didn't have no blacks signs in shop windows either

Possibly because at that time the Welsh knew what is was to deal with racist slurs , well long before that time too

Erm despite all our political differences aren't we all agreed that's its a good thing that the govt is putting some money into providing English lessons for these people?

Jane, you would think so,wouldn't you?! To be fair, most of us do.

I am in agreement. It's just not enough, too targeted and I'm concerned about value for money.

Yes, most have expressed the opinion that it's a good idea, in theory at least.

I don't know how the thread has morphed into a series of posts admonishing the English for historical racism and giving statistics about the benefits of immigration to the UK. I think most of us realise that many services would collapse without immigrant employees, but the proposed English language lessons are not intended for those already fluent enough to hold down a job.

Not all, Jane10. Some think they should pay for it themselves. Some think they should not be allowed in unless they can speak English well enough to be able to get a job.

These are the ones that need to be persuaded; however, I think they never could be.