How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

I voted for the Common Market because I thought that we ought to built up friendship and trade especially due to problems left over from ww2.

Although I am reasonably well read, I really don't know enough about the pros and cons to vote either way with any conviction. If we are expected to vote on this we ought to be given more factual information instead of political sound bytes.

What worries me is all the concessions that Britain is getting from the EU. I can't help feeling we will be made to pay for those concessions by countries that were very unhappy about British concessions. And I don't understand why Europe isn't dealing sesnsibly with refugees fleeing the bombing in Syria and elsewhere in that region. The monolithic European Parliament looks like smoke and mirrors when they have a real problem to deal with.

A good question to John McDonnell on Question Time after he spoke about the argument which arises over Sovereignty given to European Institutions ..He said we have given sovereignty to multi national corporations and the only way we can tackle them and bring them under some form of ''democratic control' and making sure they pay their taxes is on a European scale.

Audience questioner.

"But John you say that you want to stay in the European Union to give more democratic control over business, but whilst we are within the European Union it is 'ILLEGAL' to expand State Ownership of business. So how does that aid democratic control over business?.

McDonnell.

" That's a great question. If we stay In ' WE'VE GOT TO HAVE OUR REFORMED AGENDA' and what's interesting right the way across Europe now we are working with Socialist , Social Democratic and other progressive parties to develop that reform agenda ensuring ' more democratic control at local level ' , subsiduatory really works. Also come to common agreements how we democratically control for example the flow of capital ensuring that we get the long term investment that we need that shares prosperity right the way across Europe. We can only do that on a European basis.

Isn't the term he uses 'more democratic control at local level' the same as a country having the sovereignty to make it's own decisions or am I missing something. McDonnell says ' we can only do that on a European basis '. No , we are part of other financial institutions/groups such as the G8 in our own right and in the G20 both in our own right and as part of the European Union.

The fact he is agreeing with the point the European Union needs 'REFORM' is only agreeing with every man and his dog who has a remote interest in the dealings of the European Union and a point he has made by rebelling in Parliament over so many years on all matters concerning the European Union. There is not a single person that I can think of who has not said stay in a 'IN A REFORMED EUROPEAN UNION'. Not one politician.

The question is David Cameron has got about as much 'REFORM' as we are going to get , is it enough? McDonnell sounds assertive, plausible unless you consider that the European Union is 28 countries, formed by different groupings and the Socialist grouping he makes out to be the saviours of democratic control are no more than just one grouping who have shared that vision for years, they haven't just just awoken from a deep sleep , that is what the Socialist group aspire to . You only have to look at the way the European Union has run rough shod over Greece to see there is no magic pig flying over the EU Parliament/Commission that will bring their goal/vision to fruition. I don't understand why now those known Eurosceptics have suddenly changed their minds as the reasoning is not only flawed it is reliant on nothing more than hope the EU will do as they say, it hasn't so far.

I've noticed all the pro-EU enthusiasts are urging us to vote to stay in a reformed EU as well, POGS. When is this 'reformed' EU going to materialise?

I am completely undecided , so much scaremongering going on, hopefully nearer the vote things will be clearer in my mind

I vote OUT. Smile

I vote OUT

Ana

Lord knows!

Some of those who are strongly in favour of staying In also state that David Cameron's so called reform deal was rubbish. He should have got more etc. etc., what reform bla bla bla yet they are happy to keep with the status quo.

All very confusing and I am still working my around the implication of Turkey being fast tracked possibly as the 29th member.

Let's say it again maggie..... I VOTE OUT!

There has been much made of life outside the European Union and Switzerland is often mentioned alongside Norway.

Did you know Switzerland officially withdrew it's application for Membership to the European Union last week! Norway has had close calls but their 'EU referendums' have produced a NO twice.

Surprised the withdrawl of the Swiss application for membership to the EU has not been mentioned much by the t.v media. It has been in print but no doubt some would say it is a made up Daily Mail story.

The application has already been void since 1992. " In response to a poll by 20 Minuten, asking readers if they agreed with the move to withdraw, 21 percent of nearly 15,000 people responded: "We submitted a membership application? I didn't know that!" "

It is not just in the Mail - other news reports mention it.

www.thelocal.ch/20160302/switzerland-national-council-eu-application

POGS. What, you mean the BBC didn't mention it? I am surprised.

I hope this helps. Read this earlier and it may put the fears of ex-pats and EU workers to rest.

From Tim Loughton, MP.

EU Referendum: Ex-pats and UK nationals abroad

A number of residents have been in touch with me regarding what would happen to UK nationals abroad and ex-patriots if Britain leaves the EU.
Well again there has been a lot of scaremongering. One of my colleagues described the status of British citizens on the continent if we Vote Leave as being like "illegal immigrants". Let's just dispel some of this nonsense and misinformation going around.

Under the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969, anybody already living in an EU country, or who has property there, will have their current arrangements protected if we come out of the EU. There are "acquired rights" which people have built up over time.

This works both ways as well. Whilst there are 320,000 Brits living in Spain and 250,000 Brits living in Ireland, there are roughly 400,000 French citizens living in London alone. London has been described as France's 6th largest city. There are more than double French people living in London than there are Brits living in the whole of France.

There is not going to be any mass deportation of French people if we vote to come out of the EU on 23 June. We will continue as we are at the moment, certainly anyone living in an EU country, or who has property in an EU country, will have their current arrangements protected.

Looking at the case of Greenland, which is the only country to come out of the EU, their citizens continued to have rights to live in the EU and there was no mass deportation of Greenland citizens back to Greenland. So let's put that scare story to bed once and for all.

Looking at healthcare costs, at the moment if you are living in Spain then NHS pays out the costs of any healthcare costs you might have and, by the same token, EU countries are supposed to reimburse the NHS for the costs of healthcare for EU citizens treated in the UK. In fact, what is happening is the NHS is paying out a lot more for British citizens in other EU countries than the NHS is getting back from EU citizens in the UK. So we are already paying for the healthcare cost of British citizens living in EU countries and that would continue just the same if we voted to come out.
Another scare story put to bed.

In terms of people's working rights, this is one of many things that will need to be negotiated after we come out of the EU. It is going to be a complicated negotiation, but it will mean that we can choose what skill sets we want to come to this country. Similarly, there will be many UK citizens who will want to work on the continent and who will benefit those economies. This being the case common sense will prevail. There will be no huge upheaval in where people are living or able to work if we come out of the EU on 23 June, so let's put that latest scare story from ‪#‎ProjectFear‬ to bed.
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#‎VoteLeave‬

Elegran

Not sure how it was void from 1992, am I missing something?

Switzerland as an EFTA (European Free Trade Association) member took part in the negotiations for the EEA (European Economic Area) Agreement and signed the Agreement on 2nd May 1992. Immediately after that the Swiss Government submitted an application for ' accession to the European Union' on the 22nd May 1992. However, following a referendum held on 6th December 1992 that yielded a vote against participating in the EEA , the Swiss Federal Council stopped pursuing the countries EU and EEA membership.

Since then Switzerland has retained observer status within the EEA and developed it's relations with the EU through bi lateral agreements in order to 'safeguard it's economic integration with the EU'. Bilateral relations have been severely strained since the February 2014 Anti migration initiative , the outcome of which called into question the principles of free movement and the single market that underpin those relations.

Extract from the European Parliament At your Service.

So to my understanding the vote taken to 'Formally Withdraw ' the Swiss application for accession to the EU by a vote of 126 to 46 last week in the Lower House of the Swiss Parliament is not concluding it has been 'void' since 1922. It would be fair to say this is more of a Symbolic gesture but none the less it is a statement made by the Swiss government and it's feeling toward being a fully paid up member of the European Union, IMHO. They have never felt being a fully paid up member benefitted Switzerland in other words since it's application in 1992.

I am quoting from the link, Pogs, and assuming that they are right.

Perhaps they should have done something else to keep it alive? (filled in another form? )

If the application was void, why did they have to withdraw it?

I have just read this blog post by Kenan Malik: The Blindness of EU Migration Policy. It has left me, more than ever before, disgusted with the EU.

How can the EU push refugees back to Turkey, which already has 3 million refugees, from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.
If the EU can send the refugees back to Turkey, why should Turkey not be able to send them back where they came from?
Horrible idea, I think.

That's right, for people fleeing conflict in Syria; however, there is an urgent need to process the migrants into asylum seekers and those who are economic migrants.
Most are from Syria and Afghanistan but a substantial number are not. Many do not have papers.
And I hope that no Kurdish refugees will be sent back to Turkey, as Turkey has been fighting the Kurds for many years.

More problematic is Turkey's request for visa-free access for all its citizens to the EU's Schengen zone, which it hopes to achieve by June. This may draw a lot of opposition.
(BBC)

And people still want to stay with the EU even when now they are showing their true colours.

Some mindsets will not be changed, whatever the evidence. There will always be some excuse...

Ana. But these are the people who are always banging on about human rights and how we are going to loose them if we leave the EU who are going to jump in bed with the Turks. Nobody can defend that.

Without a doubt, out.

Apparently trade in London via the Thames is increasing. I doubt if all cargo carried by ships of the
United Arab Shipping Company is European.

I didn't decide to follow @vesselfinder because of the referendum, btw, in case anyone wonders. My interest in shipping is more catholic (NB small 'c') than that

Amazing what you find via Twitter.