European Union in or out

www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-migration-figures-pose-no-problem-for-the-uk-not-that-you-d-know-it-by-listening-to-the-a7038076.html

Daphne, this is the Independent's view on those immigration figures.

This is why we should be grateful to Boris and IDS; they help us decide which way to vote.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/watching-the-tories-debate-brexit-is-like-witnessing-the-greek-philosophers-at-the-peak-of-their-a7037906.html

Thanks for the link about immigration, dj. The whole issue isn't that clear cut.

Theresa May could change the immigration rules for people from non-EU countries, if she wished. The argument about Indians (or whoever) not being able to come to the UK as a result of the EU is a non-starter...and one I doubt if many BREXITERs really care about.

Interesting point about the NMW. If it were properly enforced and the trade unions hadn't been killed off, employers wouldn't have been able to drive down wages.

Good point re May damphnedil. In fact she changed the immigration rules for Indians etc. The previous "highly skilled migrant" scheme allowed people with certain qualifications and then look for a job. This was very similar to the "Australian style points system" that Farage keeps banging on about.
This was working well until Cameron set himself a crazy target for "net immigration" so May started changing things in the frantic hope of meeting the targets.

Did anyone see the programme on the EU with Jeremy Paxman on BBC1 last night?

No I didn't Anya any chance you could précis the programme in a couple of sentences for people like me who might not have the patience to watch the whole programme ? Or is this too much like your schooldays being asked to do the impossible by your teacher.

I suppose I could stop being rather idle and go to Catch Up.

Yes Anya, I saw it. I spent most of it calling most of the members un printable names. Snouts in the trough comes to mind.

Some interesting letters to the editor in the Times this morning about the EU approach to GM food.

Blond Boris is a dangerous man - he appears to be a buffoon but underneath it has his own agenda. Cameron has already said he will resign the Leadership of the Tories by the next General Election and if the vote is to leave then I think he will go sooner. He will not be allowed to negotiate the exit of the UK - a new team will do it and presumably from the Exit side with all their diplomatic skills to the fore. Can you imagine Gove insisting that they give us tariff free trading deals! And being backed up by Farage and Boris!!!
The EU is also intending to have a new team and they have already said that negotiations will begin the week after the referendum and the main part must be completed within two years - quite fast really. The weekend after the referendum Cameron has to go to the EU and formally give UK's notice to leave.
We may not like this present Govt but they are preferable to some which may come to replace them.

theconversation.com/its-irresponsible-to-compare-the-eu-to-the-failed-demagoguery-of-hitler-and-napoleon-59617

From a historian.
Not sure I agree with that, Welshwife. The government which comes after Cameron will consist of mainly the same people.

I still want to know why Corbyn has changed his stance on Europe.

I known this is totally off thread Bags but I had to LOL at the letter from the ex-Headteacher about KS2 SATs and secondary schools ignoring them. It's was so true!

Anyway back to the EU

"As of 2014, Norway and Switzerland both have higher immigration from the EU per head of population than the UK.

A Swiss referendum vote in 2014 to cap immigration from the EU was criticised by the EU as against the rules of the treaty dealing with free movement of people, and led to the suspension of talks over cooperation in research funding."

This is from a fullfact factfind on yesterday's Question Time. I thought it was interesting to look at Switzerland and Norway, as these are the sort of deals we would try to make if we left the EU.
Immigration from the EU would not necessarily fall, particularly if we wanted to benefit from the free market in goods and services.

Gove etc shroud waving re the NHS yesterday implying that EU will inevitable expand and swamp the NHS.
A few points:
The EU cannot expand to include other countries without the UK agreeing.
The NHS faces a problem due the the demographic bulge of post-war babies heading into old age, when their use of the NHS will increase dramatically. And we are living longer than previous generations as well.
Economists have for years been pointing out that a there is going to be a relative shortage of younger people paying their taxes to fund an expanding NHS. (Same applies to some pension schemes if you think about it - pensioners living longer...)
The UK desperately needs more younger workers to enter the Uk labour market to redress this balance. There is only one way this is going to happen - immigration. And as we all know, the vast majority of immigrants want to work hard, get on and make a success of their lives.
Finally - Gove is part of a government that is hammering the NHS by under-funding it. That demographic time bomb has already started to increase NHS demand but the government are demanding that budgets are set with an expectation of huge "efficiency savings". This when hospital managers have been trying to make savings for years. So of course they are failing to meet their targets now.

Rather worrying how happy so many of you are voting out, perhaps you don't remember how hard life was in the sixties you are all better off now, no thought for your children or grandchildren who have never known anything different, do you have the right to determine their future. Are anyone of you experts in business or economics, I know I am not despite reading all I can about the choice we have.

So many of us Katkin?

The OUT contributors are so few and far between on this thread that it's not really worth adding to the debate.

It's become the lefty little party propaganda area for the remain camp.

Not many members participate in the political threads, and I can understand why now. I have given up on this one.

No need to add that the reasons to leave outnumber the reason to stay as far as I am concerned. I remember a life before the EU which was vastly more straightforward than this one.

We have lost control to the EU, our democracy is under thread, Cameron's reforms came to nothing.

Cameron and Osborne are terrified of destabilisation because of how it will hit their positions, power and bank accounts and they've got so many other concerns only interested in profit and position onside. It's disgusting and they are issuing horror stories every five minutes. Absolutely despicable scare tactics. Their whole campaign is based on fear and they are selling the UK down the river because THEY fear what will become of their power outside the EU.

I was open mouthed when Osborne used the "Oh, your house will be devalued" tactic! They are scraping the barrel in trying to frighten people. Economists have talked through that one and no such thing will happen. There will be a pause at most in the value while the economy settles. Absolute scare-mongering aimed at ordinary people with a lot less than that millionaire! Disgusting!

What will they say next? Shoe shops will close and we'll be forced to wear rags on our feet? Still waiting for the plague of locusts.

I think katkin is right - there do seem to be a huge amount of people on here who wish to leave. The main problem I see with that is once we do that it will be no good regretting the decision as we will not be allowed back easily and in fact may well no longer fit the criteria to do so. There is so much scaremongering from the leave side - with regards to migration and costs etc and many absolute lies are being repeated and repeated. The net migration is very little and mainly well educated people doing valuable jobs. Many of those who are doing low paid jobs are over qualified for the job but doing it to be earning money.
Life was far from better before we joined - many things have got cheaper in relative value and we do still decide our own laws despite the erroneous impression given. It will suit many rich people who are business owners for us to leave as there will be 'loosening' of regulations. Ask yourselves what could this possibly mean - it will mean lots of safety at work laws being repealed and issues to do with food hygiene also being downgraded - all to make more money for the owners and to make working conditions worse for the working population.
Travel will be greatly curtailed and working across countries -made far more difficult - at the moment free lance people can work in any EU country without masses of paperwork and with no basic limit of business to be able to do this - allowing individuals with a skill to find work across all the countries. This would change for them and working visas would likely be needed for EACH country. Your children and grandchildren will be greatly curtailed in where they can either study or work.
If any of the Brexit camp could give a couple of BAD laws which we have to abide by because of EU it would be helpful - it would be even more helpful if we could know what they see as replacing them. Please don't bring up the old chestnut of deportation of undesirables as that is not the EU but the Human Rights lobby. It is easier to move criminals across Europe from within the EU and the police force do co-operate for all sorts of things.
We need to look at the whole picture and not decide on a small few items - the 'good old days ' will not be there or come back if we leave - time and the world have moved on. New trading partners have been forged already and we would need to break into that. What I cannot understand is why the Brexiters see all warnings as to likely outcomes as pure scaremongering whereas all the Brexit camp say is either proven lies or plans which are not achievable. We would still need to keep to all the rules to trade with the EU and also pay into the budget and have no say. There will be no free trading deals - we will be paying export/import duty.
Cameron did not say that he had got these wonderful deals - nothing was written in stone but it was agreed that certain things would be changed - why would they change things already when UK may not be a member within a few months? The fact of the U.K. are having a referendum has made a good few rumblings throughout EU and we will be in a good position to be there and have a hand in changes which do need to be made. The countries who wish to join the EU are all a long way from being able to do so and after the fiasco of allowing some poorer countries to join they are unlikely to be able to join for many many tears - including Turkey - that is another red herring - these travel visas they have negotiated are very specific and only include Schengen area countries anyway - no one has suggested UK will need to join that.

Never thought of Cameron and Osbourne as lefties

Well said Welshwife

So why bother, Day6, if it's not worth your time adding to the debate?

Well said Day6.

The OUT contributors are so few and far between on this thread that it's not really worth adding to the debate.

It's become the lefty little party propaganda area for the remain camp.

Not many members participate in the political threads, and I can understand why now. I have given up on this one.

That's well said, is it?
The thread was started by a lefty, so I presume it.s okay for us to carry on?

As I said to Day6, why bother, Firecracker?

Do you really mean to be so dismissive of other people's opinions durhamjen, or is it just the way it comes across? Surely Firecracker123 has as much right as anyone else to post on this thread. It does seem as though any political thread has become dominated by the loony lefties but it doesn't mean they are the only ones who can comment.

Interesting to hear a Brexit bod saying that the UK has no veto as to whether Turkey joins. Well grans have news for you dear. The U.K. definitely does - we know that from our look at the EU a couple of years ago.

Well, I haven't heard any suggestion of that from the government so far. They seem resigned to the fact that Turkey will eventually join.