European Union in or out

I remember someone trying to give travel directions to someone and saying to them that if that was where they were going he wouldn't advise starting from here. It seems very like that in the decision to leave or remain. If we had realised how it was going to turn out it is very possible that votes would not have been cast in the way they were. No way of telling the future, no turning back the clock to that time in order to change what we did and here we are.

I have several questions and don't know where to find the answers any more than others do.
The financial dealings of the EU give me great concern particularly in that to date no audit has ever been successful. Nobody can account for all the money demanded in contributions.
There is so much money being paid out of the EU 'budget' in salaries, expenses and pensions that I feel it is no wonder we are being asked for so much money to send for 'the pot'. Neither am I surprised at the rush to get on the gravy train. For example the massive payments being made to people like Rompuy who gets £500,000+ per year for the first 3 years after retirement and £52,000 per year pension. Rompuy's successor is even getting 4 or 5 times the salary that he did! That is no inflationary increase!

There are more and more decisions which affect all of us being made outwith the elected system by unelected people who form the Commission and this will gain momentum as it continues unchallenged.

I remember all the food and wine mountains and whilst we no longer hear about those wonder whether that system has changed at all. Amongst many others of similar ilk I daresay. Perhaps there is a reason that facts are difficult to find and obviously unpalatable or difficult ones particularly so - which one is bound to conclude due to frustration if nothing else!

I could go on but today I am going out in the beautiful sunshine with friends.

www.facebook.com/theguardian/videos/506897629498005/

Another factor is that so many want to work part-time- but when the GVT did the calculations, that was not taken into consideration. Still today, most GP trainees are women, and many only work full time for a few years then part-time or none when children come along. We also know quite a few young male doctors who have chosen to work 4 days a week- to have 1 day for the family or play golf, whatever.

I am on a Forum with lots of young people in Switzerland- we have had large numbers of young doctors and teachers saying they have had enough- and of course salaries are much larger here, hours shorter and small classes or small number of patients.

BTW- we are not in the EU- but our bins are never collected in my area- the choice was made to change to a system of large underground bins with massive sacks which are lifted by a lorry with a crane regularly. We have a credit card type thing to open the lid- our bag of rubbish is weighed and goes towards our bill- then drops. People were up in arms at the beginning- but it is actually so simple, and we have all saved in council tax and our personal rubbish tax, and the amount of rubbish has decreased a lot, as people make more effort to avoid packaging, recycle and compost (either at home or via council facilities)- so overall a great idea- and NOT EU imposed- but implemented after proper reserarch that showed it would be cheaper and reduce waste. It did, on both counts.

Now I hope you'll take the time to watch this fabulous sketch about the European Human Rights- it is brilliant

There's a problem with GPs because practices can't recruit. British born and trained doctors don't want to become GPs. Only anecdotal, I know, but a third of the GPs in my surgery are EU born and another two (out of a practice of 12) are from the Asian subcontinent. Another is South African.

There's a similar situation with teachers. Last year, only half of training places for language teachers were filled and the situation is even worse for physics. We HAVE to import teachers or pupils wouldn't be taught.

I agree with dj. What do immigrants have to do with bins?

By the way, I've been finding out about immigrants and benefits and will write more when I'm not so tired. It appears that the Daily Mail was very selective with its information. On average, EU immigrants claim fewer benefits than UK citizens and make less use of the NHS. That's not surprising, because they tend to be younger, fitter and have come to the UK for work. They did claim slightly more in working tax credits, but new regulations will mean that they will get much less. That's because they tend to take jobs which other people won't do, because they're low paid, sometimes in areas with high housing costs. They are prepared to share housing (and even bedrooms) with others. They are often over-qualified for the jobs they do and wait until their English improves to find better paid work. If they didn't do the work, the chances are the work wouldn't be done. The British are getting highly skilled and qualified workers on the cheap.

Obieone, read fullfact on immigration.

fullfact.org/europe/immigration-eu-referendum/

Your answers are here.
Immigration is not an EU problem.

Why would our bins not be collected? That's just ridiculous.

So sorry if you feel 'got at' -this is not at all my intention. But be it here on GN or in real life- it is just not appropriate to state 'it can be done' and then totally refuse to discuss how- whatever the topic of discussion or the issue at stake.

Sorry, posts crossed. So that is it? It's doeable, but no more answers? And that is the huge problem with all the Brexiters I've met and talked to so far.

All you have to do is ....

but no idea how!

Agreed, not easy. But please, dont say it is doeable. Because it is all Brexiters keep saying- doeable to stop them coming- doeable to just renegotiate Trade Deals with Europe and the USA - just just just - as if it was just so so simple. Easy peasy, Bob's your uncle. Is it? really?

No more from me granjura.

And no end to the expense if we dont- people would soon start complaining once they could not see a GP, have access to health services, school places, bins not being collected etc.

Please explain how Obione- please. A boat arrives near the coast full of migrants- as we have seen them, with children and elderly people, some disabled - what does the army do?

Yes, it might be expensive trisher, but is doable.

Theresa May has said that we must leave the ECHR.
Like most sensible posters I know that we will stay in the EU. But at least, if TM stays as Home Secretary we stand a chance of getting rid of this shackle.
I know that some of you will say that maybe the Tories won't get in at the next election, but that's something I am sure of. And I DONT vote Tory.

obeione what they want is to get into the country, at present they are held in some sort of containment in France where we have facilities to process them and we are working with the French to control them. If we exit the EU I can see no reason why the French should continue to cooperate with us. In fact it might be much easier for them to simply send them across. Possibly we could deal with them, but it would certainly mean huge expense.

djen sometimes it feels likes being swept along by forces beyond our control, that is what is so worrying. Voting for our MEPs sometimes seems quite meaningless.

I know it is better to be part of a larger union in today's world; however, do the disadvantages outweigh the benefits.
Dilemma.

(that post got us no further forward in the debate, did it!)

What do you expect the army to do? Pray tell.

There are so many UK people making money out of employing them below the minimum wage and without any of the security btw.

Deny them health services? It has been discussed in great depth- but having people with communicable diseases, be it Aids or TB, etc- and not allow them treatment puts the rest of the population at great risk (as well as being in-humane).

What rôle could teh Army play- really, in practical terms. Deflate the boats, shoot them? Do they shoot the children too, and the disabled and elderly? Not being flippant here. Genuine question.

granjura, army, people power, not pay them benefits, not allow them jobs, etc.

That's a dilemma for me, Jalima.
However, staying in or leaving the EU is more than just the issue of TTIP.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/25/ttip-vote-brexit-barack-obama-leave-eu-trade-deal

www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/apr/25/patrick-stewart-sketch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video

President Obama is trying to push through the TTIP trade pact with the EU before he leaves office.
It would supposedly increase trade and create jobs.
Those against it say it will give big corporations too much power:
www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/obama-germany-pushes-major-trade-deal-160424211303579.html
People in Germany are protesting about this deal, as are many people in this country:
www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html (old link)

If we should vote to come out of the EU and President Obama has warned that we would be 'at the back of the queue' and it could take up to 10 years for the UK to negotiate a deal with the US, would that necessarily be a bad thing?
Do those who are against TTIP support Brexit?

Love your optimism obione- but please, help me here- how could it, would it- be done?

With such narrow sea pasages, if the people on the other side want to get rid of those who want to cross- how would you stop it? Genuine question.

Sovereignty is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity.
Sovereignty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty

International law; policies and actions of neighboring states; cooperation and respect of the populace; means of enforcement; and resources to enact policy are factors that might limit sovereignty. Wikipedia
Explore: International law
The modern meaning of sovereignty (but not popular sovereignty) was introduced by Jean Bodin in 1576. basiclaw.net
Explore: Popular sovereignty
Sovereignty reemerged as a concept in the late 16th century, a time when civil wars had created a craving for stronger central authority, when monarchs had begun to gather power into their own hands at the expense of the nobility, and the modern nation state was emerging. Wikipedia
Explore: Nation state

Seems a clear enough definition to me.

I sometimes think people like to make a concept appear difficult on purpose.

As to how to stop immigrants. If there really was a will, these things can be done and would be.
They are not trying to invade us after all, they want things from us.

large areas artificially reclaimed from the sea might have to be given back to the sea ...

Might need to to save the UK from flooding, granjura.

Just build a wall 'à la Trump' Trisher- easy enough, no? But I am not sure the Mexicans will pay for this one though ;)