The EU - we are on the home straight folks!

The 'seriously' should have been in inverted commas, I take the referendum as seriously as anyone else on here, but happen to think we should leave the EU.It doesn't mean that we can't have the odd lighthearted comment now and again, because it has become mired in the mud and is stagnating under the weight of links.

I could not care less about the differing views we all have, and understand concerns the Remain side have, so it is ironic that I should be accused of that.

I haven't voted yet. I am still waiting for a brexiter to give me a good reason to leave that I can believe in.

Just as the other thread is not just for some but for ALL, so this thread is as well, and may be as serious or as lighthearted as posters want their comments to be.

Can you give me a link to someone who can give a good reason for leaving, roses? Or at least give me a reason that someone important has said.
I really cannot find any reasons that you have given. You have stated your opinion quite often, but not given a reason for that opinion.

Roses this is for all; no one has said differently, indeed we cannot only GNHQ could do that. No one has said YOU'RE TRESPASSING as they did on the other thread nor have posts have to be removed for being personal.

Right. I am off here for the night. Good night all.

I was watching Springwatch earlier, and thinking that some migrants we can't keep out. They need caring for, too, terns that travel down to the Antarctic over winter and come back here to the same nest every year. Quite amazing.

click.email.rspb.org.uk/?qs=19f7f05fd60f66015071efe1db1d237f3051a54e040c10fdf96175dc1ea2f14831045b893b65c044

This is a reason to stay in.

What's the point, really?There are many things to read on the subject , but I imagine my own reasons are similar to a lot of others. The main thing is sovereignty, the right to make our own policies, not accept those thought up in Brussels.Not to accept the 'free movement of people' but to have our own immigration policies, we will always need immigrants but we must be able to choose who comes and goes.Not to belong to an already teetering on the brink bloated and corrupt organisation like the EU.
If we go, chances are that other countries ( the ones who matter) may go as well.
What was needed a while ago was a resolve to change the working of the EU, but with so many countries involved, nothing could ever be agreed upon.If the EU had kept to about a dozen countries it could have worked, but the relentless rolling on and gathering up of poorer countries, has doomed it.The eventual goal of closer unity and monetary union as well , may have been turned down by us, but if we stay in I doubt we can stave it off for long.
It's going the way of all empires, when they extend themselves beyond being able to control things properly.
The main thing about leaving is sovereignty, it's no good talking about economics, because it's unknown whatever way we vote, but the nub of the matter is being able to rule ourselves.
All this has already been said on the threads in many ways, which is why I find no point in going over it again, but you did ask!

Not gone yet as I wanted to post this I shall know who to blame when they cut our pensions.

Some £65bn either left the UK or was converted into other currencies in March and April - the fastest rate since the financial crisis in early 2009.

I have also given sovereignty a great deal of thought. However, whilst conceding that there is an apparent gap, I do not agree that it is as bad as the Brexiters suggest. I can give miriad examples as to why it isn't so bad but I am sure so can other grans.
However this vote isn't just about I e issue, and that is the nub. Looking at all the issues overall, sovereignty is the one that could persuade me otherwise, but this issue is far outweighed by economic factors,
environmental factors, security/peacetime factors, and immigration issues, which seems contrary, but I think it is much more honest to recognise that taking control is not the same as reducing the numbers.
Plus a number of other issues that are not necessarily on people's horizon.
The balance therefore for me is
REMAIN

I for one wouldn't dream of contributing to this thread having at first been keen to do so, for exactly the reasons that roses has been so vigorously stating. When I saw that certain people had joined in, I immediately retreated with disappointment. To compare someone's debating skills unfavouably with that of their underage grandchildren is to my mind insulting and I don't want to discuss anything with anyone who would talk to me in that vein. Yes I've certainly been made to feel very uncomfortable by certain people! - intelligence certainly not up to scratch, not in love with Wales, opinions arrogantly dismissed. I admire and agree with you roses, and I wish that us perhaps less intellectual people could have a serious chat somewhere without being treated with scorn and derision by others. Your skin's a lot thicker than mine!!

I agree with you WW that it's about multiple factors. I've come down on the OUT side as I think soveignity is extremely important, and I've listened to the discussion about economic factors and the more honest remainers admit that this could have an minimal impact. We do, allegedly, have the 5th biggest ecomony in the world we are told.

Environmental issues are being over played. The CAP has done more damage to the countryside that any other single factor and all in the name of cheap over-production of food. What it hasn't done is protect our dairy (and other) farmers from the power of the supermarkets nor has the EU followed up on its own clean air policy I feel that the British public is quite capable, through various organisations and pressure groups, of pushing forward on the environment.

Peace and security do worry me, though I see no reason to cut links with European agencies on this. I'm not sure we should try to be a world superpower any more either. But if we can spend more on policing our own borders, and the border agency has been cut drastically under this bunch of numpties, then that's all to the good. I want to be able to send home criminals and jihadists - we have enough of our own to deal with without accepting other country's undesirables.

After listening to Cameron last night I was distinctly underwhelmed by his performance. I listened to him trying to wriggle out of questions and noted the audience's tepid response to his 'answers'. I wished that a question about Turkey's membership of the EU had been allowed. That would have been interesting to see how he dealt with that.

But most of all I do feel that the UK will do better OUT as my gut feeling is that the EU is about to implode as it is getting too big, too complicated and over-reaching itself. And I know we will be asked to contribute more and more financially as its ambitions grow.

Niggly I hope you will think I have put my case to WW in an acceptable and reasoned manner, as indeed she always does herself.

People's views are not what one should respect. There are lots of views I positively abhor (think racism or some other disgusting ism). It's people who should be respected, and that includes respecting their right to hold opposing views that I think absolutely ridiculous or bad, and to talk about what I regard as their bad views without calling them names or resorting to scoffing at their intelligence.

So, for instance, I respect Donald Trump's right to speak his repulsive views unmolested and without violence of any kind, except rational argument, from people like me who disagree with him.

None of us is perfect and sometimes we slip from upholding our lofty ideals but we should still have them as our basic rule to fall back on when there is a conflict of ideas.

I think it's simplistic to expect to have a full and wide-ranging discussion of something as big as this referendum and not expect sometimes to feel 'upset' by other people's points of view, especially when they seem diametrically opposite to one's own. When I glanced at this thread last night I thought I detected a certain victim mentality coming across in a number of posts.

I think the problem is Bags that people are facing this decision in different circumstances. I am and always have been committed to the EU. I believe that we are better together than apart, that in the event of Brexit the UK economy will undergo a serious setback that it is not in good enough condition to sustain and that the uncertain future that the world faces is better tackled in partnership, especially with its closest neighbours. Unlike many, I trust the views of distinguished economists, historians, scientists and leaders of business and industry. I trust Obama more than Putin. My family are all members of the "remain" camp and I believe that the views of the younger generation are very important.
What keeps me awake at night is the fear that we personally will suffer sustained loss of income (already happening), loss of health cover (a huge worry) or even (at my lowest points) loss of our right to residence. I therefore find cheery comments about everything being fine, smiley faces and the need to just be more optimistic a bit upsetting.
I realise that many think that the views of those of us who live in other EU countries count for little (even though we might never have made the move otherwise), but I think people need to understand that their decision will affect people in a very fundamental way.
I am not asking for sympathy btw, we made our decision and we will live with the consequences.

Oh Mamie what can I say? Let's hope it doesn't come to that as I'd hate to think of you losing so much.

I certainly understand your concerns mamie.

Thanks Anya and ffinn. I don't know if you were here in 2007 ffinn when Sarkozy introduced his new law and we lost our right to health cover. The fact that we couldn't get private insurance because OH had a pre-existing condition and we were therefore without cover made that one of the most terrifying times I have ever experienced. I was part of the pressure group that fought to get the ruling overturned and with the support of some brilliant UK MEPs and the EU courts the ruling was changed.
I have not forgotten how it felt though.

I understand your concerns too, mamie, and I have similar ones, but I don't regard these worries as in any way dependent on our membership of the EU. I think it's possible to work in partnership with neighbouring (and not so neighbouring) countries without recourse to a single market or other huge umbrella organisations.

With regard to British expats in Europe: British citizens lived in various mainland European countries long before the EU was set up. I'm thinking in particular of all those low-cash-flow aristocratic types who moved to France because it was cheaper to live there that one reads about in novels and history books.

I have every sympathy for those abroad who maybe worried, but think that for quite a while, years and years probably, nothing will change, and as we would be allowing all those from EU countries already living here to carry on living here their rights to healthcare would be protected and it would be a reciprocal arrangement, throughout the EU countries.After that,I agree with what thatbags has just written.
It hasn't happened yet, this is all speculation, and very likely the UK will vote to stay in anyway.

I sometimes think Cameron is the Leave campaign's secret weapon. Sigh. There are a lot of people who feel they have been lied to by Cameron (NHS safe in his hands? Greenest government ever? hard working families protected? etc) So why should they now believe him more than the silver tongued Farage with his slick pitch and his passport permanently in his pocket to use as a prop.
Sorry it is so worrying for you Mamie. I am not focussing on my personal concerns although I do have some (will DH get ANY paid work as a scientist once his PhD is finished? Will my smallish occupational pension be affected by recession? etc) However I am really worried about the effect of an Exit on ordinary people, many of whom are currently struggling to get by. They have suffered most from austerity and the changes in the working world (lack of jobs in regions, zero hours contracts etc). I am aware that we are going to see more austerity cuts to services like libraries, leisure centres etc as the Osborne cuts are far from rolled out yet and the poor will suffer most. I worry that we could get an even more right-wing government that would revel in rolling back protection for workers. And most of all I worry that it would trigger a recession that would be much worse and much longer than the last one (and we've still not begun paying off the debt), and again the poor, the young and the old will suffer the most.

Mamie I understand completely - I am most worried about the health situation if the reciprocal agreement ceases? What I find very worrying is that yesterday the Spanish Prim minister said that the position of Ex Pats in Spain would change dramatically if there was a Brexit. Hollande said nothing! That too is worrying.
I have not mentioned this on here before as I thought I would be accused of just being selfish - but as much as I love living here I would be happy back in UK nearer to our family. I am looking at the whole package as far as I can and as whitewave said - on balance I still come down on Remain.
The idea of continuing peace is a far greater reason for me than anything else - I do not want my DGC listening for air raid warnings and wondering every time someone goes out - I know that some of the hang ups I have are from experiences as a small child.
All we can do is hope that things work out whatever way it goes.

Jess I agree and have huge worries about the impact of Brexit on the EU economy, especially on those who have already suffered so much from this wretched government.
I am extremely concerned about the consequences of Brexit on all manner of things; the personal worries keep me awake at night, but certainly aren't the most important part of the debate!

You have 3 choices in,out,spoil, but please vote.