EU - I'm in a quandary

Are we getting a bit tired and tetchy people? Can I suggest a few of remedies.
1. If you are Welsh, or even half Welsh, WALES JUST BEAT RUSSIA 3-0. Just Tweeted "C'mon Wales, You know you love Europe" We won at singing as well
2. If you are not even a teeny, weeny bit Welsh, have a look at the hashtag #CatsAgainstBrexit. Very, very funny. While you are there, do feel free to follow me for more fun and frolics. Just PM me if you can't find me.
3. Jump on a train to Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwndrobwylllantisiliogogogoch station and meet me for a bit of good natured campaigning in the Anglesey sunshine. I am quite serious. that is where I will be campaigning tomorrow I'll buy you a "panad" = cuppa.

Yes, I was talking to Jalima, I think I made that clear. Jane10 I too can remember thinking that money was being lent recklessly and being somewhat alarmed at what the possible consequences could well be! How right we all were!

Yes JessM, even though I'm not a football fan, I am very pleased at Wales's success. Well done, well done indeed!

#CatsAgainstBrexit
..brilliant...

Beware of anyone who says hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Intrepretation - they themselves did not have foresight when they probably should have done, and they are trying hard to cover themselves.

Jalima don't be downhearted Only take notice of people you respect and who respect you. Don't go away that is what some rely on, we can't have a separate thread that is pleasant because they don't allow that.

Jane10 I will be voting remain but I can see both the advantages and disadvantages.

Well done Wales - why weren't they on the tv?
Sorry I can't join you for a cuppa JessM but I did learn to say that (albeit with probably a terrible English accent) many years ago.

" Whatever your view of the EU, a win for "leave" would mean profound decisions have to be made about the future of the UK and its relationship with the world. The 2015 general election manifestos did not include plans for a Britain out of Europe. Without a post-Brexit election, not only would Parliament still be unrepresentative, but it would be enacting decisions - about trade, economics, immigration and sovereignty - that no one has voted for."

This is interesting. I think it's true. If people vote to leave the EU, there is no government mandate. There will have to be an election. Anyone agree?

Yes, I'd rather have watched the Welsh match. Another good thing apart from Wales winning - Russia goes home, or has somebody already said that?

But a Government is voted in for a maximum of 5 years, come what may, is it not?

I'm not sure what they are, but I understand there are ways of forcing an early election. I hope there isn't.

I think Paul Mason's piece quoted by granjura hits the nail on the head.

I don't understand what people who vote Leave think will happen if the result is to leave the EU. There will be no 'short term' dip in the economy because it will take at least 10 years for new agreements to be implemented. So much will need to be renegotiated. We will be in the doldrums in the meantime. People have posted saying they're voting Leave for the sake of their grandchildren, yet we will have condemned them to decades of uncertainty and decline.

I honestly feel despair at the thought of the Leave campaign succeeding because I can't see how our lives will be changed for the better. It feels like we will be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

This is Paul Mason's article in case anyone missed it before

Paul Mason article

Quite WilmaKnickerscfit - the sad thing is that most of the ordinary voters I have encountered who want to leave seem to have one or two simplistic reasons: I don't like immigrants, I don't like being bossed about, it would be good to have a change - leaving me with the impression that their grip on economic realities and the wider picture is slim to say the least. A tiny proportion have a specific reason derived from their working lives.
The Leave politicians sometimes say that the Remain camp are pessimistic when they say that the economy in the UK is likely to suffer badly if we leave. This is unjust I think as those who wish to remain tend to be optimistic about working together with EU colleagues and optimistic about the role of immigrants in UK society. An analogy is that a chap in the pub says he's thinking of leaving his wife. One friend says "Go for it! It will be great, nobody to nag you and boss you around, nobody holding the purse strings!" and the other friend says "Hang on a minute, have you thought about the fact that you'll have to rent somewhere to live and support the wife and kids for years. And you've already got a lot a hell of a lot of debts haven't you? No marriage is perfect. Don't you think it would be a better idea to stay and try to make your relationship better?"

Sorry if this is on another post, but it's worth a watch. 3.23 onwards explains that we already have control.

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=tvoiX9gSKII

His information on immigration is published separately.

news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/20/eu-law-expert-responds-industrial-dishonesty-video-goes-viral/

What an eejit I am! I forgot I'd copied the Zakynthos video!

Here's the real one;

youtu.be/USTypBKEd8Y

A love of leavers seem to be ignoring the evonomic arguments. Wouldn't explanations like this make them at least think about changing their minds? www.bbc.com/news/business-36581659

Just to tell you footie fans- depending which area you live in the two matches were on - one on ITV1 and the other ITV2. As we get WeLsh stations the Wales match was on ITV1 and England on ITV2 -- the reverse in English areas

Prior to Cameron becoming Prime Minister after Blair he changed the ruling about when a General Election is called - he made it fixed term Parliaments of 5 years. Previously to that it had been for a maximum of five years but if there was a vote of no confidence or a big bill was defeated an election was called earlier. This is why there was often a lot of speculation previously as to if and when an election would be called. I found that rather exciting - much better than realising that whatever happened we were stuck for a fixed amount of time!

High time for this list again
www.worldsrichestcountries.com/

European countries dont actually do too well. Many countries are doing better. And have been for quite some time.

It is a bit of a myth that European countries are economically great.

It is quite easy to say and see that we could do better, a lot better, out of the EU.
Others do it, so no reason why we can't.

Short term, yes things have to be sorted out. But there are big opportunities medium and long term, going into the future.

JessM. Our voice has been and is so tiny in the EU. Even I have been surprised how little impact we have made there in the last 40 years, especially in the last 10.
And how strong Germany has somehow become, when it too is only supposed to have a 1/28 voice or however many countries there are in there now.
Our voice has become pitiful.

Can you back that up, obie? The UK's voice isn't tiny at all. We've actually made a big impact, despite opting out of Schengen and the Euro, which does cause some suspicion and resentment.

Yes I would like to see the evidence for that statement obieone.
I read the French press on a daily basis and I would say that considerable weight (and column inches) are given to the UK's view on European issues.

@obie

European countries ARE doing well. As I stated before, many of the richest countries per capita are wealthy, because they're sitting on an underground oil lake.

Not only that, but most European countries started from a high starting point, so their percentage growth is low, compared with the 'new' economies such as India and China. Japan has a bigger economy than most European countries, but it also has huge debts. Approximately 45% of the government's income is used to pay the interest on the national debt.

GDP isn't the only way to measure a country's wealth. You also need to look at the standard of living - topics such as health, education, longevity, lack of wars, etc. Europe is doing pretty well.

What David Cameron managed for example, was awful.
I am thinking perhaps that your expectations are so very small?

Views that the media choose to put in their media is not an influence, just newspaper words.

Views that the media choose to put in their media is not an influence, just newspaper words

obieone, can you explain what on EARTH that is supposed to mean?
I have read some daft pronouncements, but this takes the biscuit.