The one indisputable FACT in this referendum debate

No Pogs you vote for all sorts of reasons- it is a balance. Some of us find that "in"is the way to go with enthusiasm, others with scepticism. Others "out" with same more or less enthusiasm.

I am voting remain with a great deal of scepticism. But after a great deal of reading/courses etc. I am convinced at this stage that remain is correct, and it will not necessarily be for the reasons other people give.

I am still reading and doing courses and will continue to do so up until the day I vote. It is the most important vote I have ever taken part in.

It isn't just my country at stake but our European friends and their project of spreading democracy, the rule of law and human rights. Why do you think Turkey are finding it so difficult to enter?

In my view we remain and use what we have learned during this exercise to push for reform. They will listen, they have to with the right wing populism becoming so alarmingly widespread.

So, have I got this right: those of us who want to leave the club are thick, but Switerland, who don't want to join the club are ok? Please feel free to educate me as I don't have an 'ology'

Are you addressing me on the correct thread Whitewave?

I do not follow the couple of posts I have made to your post to me in person.

Sorry? Is that to me or someone else?

Eh?

Oh dear, I've just seen that I spelt Switzerland wrong. Just goes to show how thick I am. You'd think I would know better the amount of times I've driven through the country.

'My neighbour has just told me that a Labour MP (she couldn't remember the name) has said that it is the poorly educated people who will vote to leave. Somehow I don't think he has done the Remainers any favours with that sort of statement grin'
...that's the comment that I was referring to; I don't know which Labour MP said it. I assume it's what has sparked other comments.

pogs yes in answer to your post about voting in.

Then I asked petra if she was talking to me

As said, chalk and cheese. Switzerland has nothing to lose, no instability to worry about, etc, etc. It was able to secure trade deals with the EU without joining- but again, this was a the cost of

- free movement of people from EU
- large fees paid to the EU without any say
- same rules and regs re safety, products, etc

On a much smaller scale, Switzerland is made up of 3 very distinct cultural groups, with different languages, different origins, different history - and very different attitudes. Romandie, the French part is much more pro Europe than the German part- the German part is the majority- so in a direct democracy, always wins! Basel generally votes with the French speakers, and Zurich often too. The rest is by a huge majority still very rural and not very open to the outside world.

As said, totally different situation- no risks for them as is the case for the UK. But do remember that Switzerland has a higher % of immigrants than the UK- and cannot stop free movement within EU. It is also a favourite place for asylum seekers from all over the world.

The EU have been saying about no easy line for the UK ever since the referendum was announced. The UK cannot really expect to be given better conditions to remain than the rest of the countries in the EU - we already do have some preferential treatment with not needing to join the Euro etc. as with all things it is easier to go in hard and relax a bit than the other way round.
I think it makes no difference to the views of the people convinced about leaving whatever is said - Farage has been doing a great job for years (and Cameron a bad one) and so they all just say 'scaremongering' but at the same time think it is OK to peddle lies and to continue with them no matter what.
If the vote is for out and these things do turn out to be scaremongering - I shall look heavenwards and expect to see the sun obliterated by pigs flying!

If we are being factual Pogs, Mutti Merkel isn't - she has no children. Just sayin.

The EU hasn't listened, so why it would now is beyond me.

What I have never got my head around, is why many left-wing posters who dont like elite/establishment etc etc can love the EU.

The EU has listened - which is why they did agree a few points with Cameron - also they have since said that things do need reforming so why wouldn't they listen now?

Oh yes, Juncker for one said he believes things need 'reforming' - but only since the UK's referendum campaigns were underway. Weasel words, perhaps.

I wonder if we ought to follow suit and suspend debate for today? I only ask as there is a rumour that her injuries are referendum related?

There is far too much prejudice on both sides about which people are for in and which are for out.
There is, isn't there jevive
A lack of respect for other people and their opinions even if you disagree with them.

It is not only Juncker! A bit of rumbling all round I think.

Croatia, which is the latest country to have joined the EU, has one of the weakest economies in the 28-country bloc.
The eastern European country, which joined the EU in July 2013, has struggled to pull itself out of a seemingly endless recession.

practical

Before the global financial crisis of 2008-09, the Croatian economy grew at a healthy 4-5% annually, incomes doubled, and economic and social opportunities dramatically improved. The prolonged crisis put this progress, as well as Croatia’s aspirations, to the test, as the country struggled with six years of recession.

Return to growth of close to 1 percent is expected in 2015. The highest contribution to this growth comes from exports of goods and services. Declining oil and food prices and the personal income tax cut helped with the recovery of domestic demand, especially of personal consumption. Investment marked an annual increase for the first time after twelve quarters, driven by rising payments for projects financed from EU funds.

Don't forget that Croatia was also recovering from years of devastating war; I hope that them joining the EU will help to preserve peace in that region.
Although, of course, the downside is that these 'wonderful' projects (new roads driven through the mountains etc etc) funded by the EU have to be paid for.

practical you don't need to post all your comments on two or more threads - that won't persuade anyone I'm afraid
you can if you like practical, some posts are repeated several times on the same thread (probably a blip!)
It's not against the rules as far as I know

"The Europeans are explicit that if we go the rest of the EU will close ranks against us. The survival of the union is more important then selling BMWs to us........They have to make clear to all other Nationalist parties in other countries in the EU like Le Penn etc.that there will be harsh consequences if a country leaves. There is no chance of any preferential treatment"

Well:

The Europeans - by that is meant the powers-that-be in Europe, ie the Commissioners etc?
Not all Europeans as some want a referendum themselves.

They have to make clear to people who do not agree with their ideals and aims that there will be harsh consequences
What harsh consequences - are the Commissioners going to round up everyone who disagrees with them, perhaps put them in camps?

Sounding a bit desperate to me, and guaranteed to harden the resolve of many people across Europe that the EU is not the democratic co-operative we all are told it is.

I am pro-EU, but I think it is danger of imploding unless the EU elite start listening.

The German business people will still want to sell us masses of cars, they would be outraged if Brussels told them they couldn't.These threats are just threats.

Well said Jalima

The UK does only import 10% of the exports of the whole of the EU so maybe not a huge percentage of the output for the companies.

@obieone

The EU isn't just about the 'élite'. The left-wingers who see politics as only about class struggle DO indeed object to the EU. However, there is so much more to the EU than that and most left-wingers (or those with left of centre views) don't all see the EU through Communist specs.

From my perspective, the Remain campaign has been a shambles. It hasn't helped that the focus has been on in fighting within the Conservative party and the Labour Party has been, at best, half hearted. LibDems, the most pro-European political party of them all, have become a toxic brand, which is a shame, because I still believe there are some very good grassroots LibDems.

So that's a no then to my post 15.35?