Does a little bit of you...... (It's about that)

Yes, I agree, jalima.

The article says it all bags Strangely enough this afternoon I listened to an interview that RT did with Romano Prodi ( ex president of the eu)
He stated that " The eu is paralysed every time it has to act decisively"
Just the sort of people you want in charge if the shit hits the fan. No surprise to me though.

Yep, a very good read. Regardless of how one voted, and the result, I hope that the unpleasant divisiveness of this referendum will be seen as a catalyst for deeper understanding in developing changes that I hope will follow.
I've certainly found the Referendum and how it's been managed one hell of an education!

I think our referendum is just what the EU was needing. Will make a lot of the EU bigwigs think again about just how hunkydory or otherwise, things in their world actually are.

Other member states are said to be envious of our ref.

"the Brexit referendum" (from the article). Is that what it was? I thought it was a referendum on whether Britain should leave the EU or remain in it. And what does 'no' and 'yes' mean in the article? Badly written.

" The sense of being politically abandoned has been most acute within the traditional working class,"

And that's why Cameron and co are most likely crapping themselves over the high turnout in the council estates.

It ain't won yet.

It's an excellent article. However, as someone with Socialist leanings I find it profoundly depressing because none of the three elements he thinks need addressing are happening here in the UK (I can't comment on other countries).

We need to establish new social mechanisms through which to link liberal ideas about immigration and individual rights with progressive economic arguments and a belief in the community and the collective... ...Until all three elements of a progressive outlook – a defence of immigration, freedom of movement and of individual rights, a challenge to austerity policies and the embrace of collective action – can be stitched together, and stitched into a social movement, then there will be no proper challenge to the populists.

I haven't got a fucking clue what it's all about.

Bags why do you have to put these articles on so bloomin' early, or so effin' late?! My brain only really functions for about ten minutes round about 12 noon.

I agree with you, Wilma. I've been thinking about this for a while. Three of the most pro-Europe cities in the UK, London, Manchester and Cambridge, are in many ways very different, but have high numbers of immigrants. They are also areas with low(ish) unemployment. Is it a case of people not bothering too much as long as they're doing OK? Is part of the solution to make sure that all parts of the UK feel more included in decisions and wealth? It seems to me that this government has been deliberately divisive.

They have obviously got an intelligent population on Gibralter. No council estates?

Not deliberately. There will always be divisions between the better off and the less well off. How can it be otherwise outside of a communist state? and that doesn't work either.

What's Gibraltar got to do with it?

Gibraltar will vote remain, because it doesn't want to do any damage to the border with Spain. Hundreds of people cross it every day to work. Can you imagine what it would be like if people had to have visas?

@jingle

The divisions between the better and worse off have widened over the last few decades, as manufacturing has disappeared. Towns and cities which once had rich and poor now only have poor and have been abandoned in favour of the bright lights of finance, etc.

Schools in coastal towns are often rubbish, as they've become a dumping ground for pensioners and the unemployed. Housing is relatively cheap, but there's little regular work, so ghettos develop along with all the social problems. It's almost like some places have a gated community with the oiks living beyond the walls (out of site, out of mind).

Just understood the reference to Gibraltar.

Leave: 823 (4&)

Remain: 19,322 (96%)

That's pretty decisive, but not surprising.

jings if you mean the bit I quoted, for me it boils down to having no serious opposition to the Tories.

daphne I think it's about too many people not having a voice, but it's more than that because not having a voice doesn't matter quite as much if you're doing OK. It matters when you're not doing OK, and unfortunately that's where my husband and I find ourselves as we get older.

Some people have never been in the 'doing OK' group and I have spent most of my working life trying to make a difference to that group. But others find themselves in the 'not doing OK' group after a major change of circumstances. You try to prepare for the future, but you can't cover all eventualities. Sorry to make this personal, but it helps me explain what I mean.

I support the views of Jeremy Corbyn, but he's not a party leader and clearly doesn't have the support of the Labour Party anyway. Perhaps the Liberal and Labour Parties can join together to form an effective opposition. I live in hope.

Anyone know why the Gibraltar vote was so one sided?

I do understand what you mean, Wilma. I'm certainly not in the 'doing OK' group and am worried sick about my future. There is no way in a million years I could support the values of those supporting Leave, but I've been trying hard to understand why people believe what they do. (Again, sorry to make it personal - I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet).

Why do people feel so disengaged? Why do they resent 'experts' so much? If I'm honest, what I see is a lot of whinging negativity.

I agree with you about Corbyn. I would love to support Labour and I voted for them as the best option in the last election, but I really can't see them winning a general election with the current state of the party.

@Wilma

I just explained about Gibraltar (based on an article I read a couple of days ago).

Gibraltar is concerned about its border. At the moment, it's relatively quick and easy to travel into and out of Spain, because of the EU. Hundreds of people cross it every day to work and shop, etc. More than probably anywhere on British soil, Gibraltar thrives on free trade and free movement of people.

Sorry daphne I missed that part of your post - can't keep up. Yes, I wondered if it was to do with the border. I've been to Gibraltar, but only for the day!

Very close result in Newcastle, but not in Orkney.

I don't understand the Sunderland result. Nissan has already indicated it will think very carefully about its future if the result is Leave. It provides thousands of jobs in the area, inculding the supply chain and the money spent in local businesses, so why? (Am genuinely trying to understand.)

Why would Nissan remove a perfectly good car manufacturing industry which exports all over the world?

Thinking very carefully and actually pulling the plug are two different things.

So sterling rose after the Gibraltar vote and has lost 6% in the 15 minutes following the Sunderland count. What's that old Chinese curse - May you live through interesting times?

@merlotgran

Because it doesn't export all over the world. Nissan UK exports most of its cars to mainland Europe. Its logistics operation relies on coordination with its Spanish plant.

A few weeks ago (before all this referendum nastiness kicked off) my son went to a talk with the head of Nissan UK. He wouldn't commit himself (not surprisingly), but he hinted very strongly that leaving the EU would affect Nissan's operation and planning.

Miliband has said some Labour areas might be protesting against the government as well as the EU. Perhaps that helps explain Sunderland.

The pound shot up to a high after 9.30 pm, so it's not surprising it is dropping after every Leave win.