Farage

People who think that by voting leave we are going to get rid of immigrants and they will suddenly get doctors appointments are going to feel cheated when that doesn't happen. Most EU migrants work in jobs British people won't take - in the fields, in slaughterhouses , in hospitals, care homes and hotels, paying taxes and NI which help support our public services. Government austerity measures have meant huge pressures on NHS and schools, and not just in areas with high immigrant populations. Huge amounts of taxpayers money wasted on education initiatives well outlook need by Jess, then we are told We are all in it together and other tosh.

"Outlined" not " outlook need"!

suzied. No one, as far as I know is talking about not having the skills we need in the country.
Why would Britain do that?

Though you understand this I think.

Obelone have you actually been out onto the streets talking to people? Lots of people think that a Leave vote was a vote to purge the UK of immigrants and miraculously, at a stroke, solve a long list of personal gripes. (even thought the equation did not add up - send all the foreign doctors home and you get an appointment more easily, hmm...) Most of us Remain voters (and I'm sure a lot of Leave voters) assumed that there was absolutely no question at all of requiring settled EU nationals to leave the country. But suddenly they are becoming a bargaining chip?!

I'm actually with Theresa May when she says there needs to be a quid pro quo deal sorted out re immigrants already in the UK and UK nationals living in the EU.

She's a canny and experienced politician. You don't put all your cards on the table at first. If she wants to get a good deal for our citizens living in other EU countries then she needs to look for a reciprocal deal.

I'm sick of hearing tired old phrases like 'you shouldn't use human beings as bargaining chips' and surprised to hear that from Nicola Sturgeon, though I think she's feeling helpless at the moment. If we want the best deal all round, re trade, immigration, future relations with the EU, we need to use all the 'bargaining chips' we have.

It is understood that those EU workers who are already in the UK will stay and that our citizens living in EU countries will too. It is simply the dance and negotiations that have to take place before the best deal for all concerned is thrashed out. While we have some, like Andea Leadsom naively offering a welcome deal before we have assured the rights of UK nationals abroad, we will be seen as a soft option and any hope of hard trading will fly out the window.

And as far as these 'lots of people' who are 'on the streets' thinking as Jess apparently thinks they do, they are not the ones who will be involved in negotiations.

I must confess I've not actually been 'on the streets' talking to the riff-raff but those few I know who are concerned about immigration certainly do not want any one 'sent home' (with the possible exception of rapist, murderers and Eastern European sex traders) and acknowledge the need we have for foreign workers across the employment spectrum.

Anyway better go, the cleaner is due in an hour and I need to clean my house before she arrives.

[roasrchicken]

JessM, I live amongst them! Some are my relatives!

That figures

Good posts, anya.

My best friend where I live is an EU immigrant. I don't think it has crossed her mind that she'd be asked to leave. I don't think she'd mind being used as a bargaining chip if it helps with other EU negotiations. Mind you, I don't think for a second that she would be asked to leave and I suspect that she thinks the same. I'll ask her next time I see her.

Most of the time, jess, you seem to scoff at "people in the streets" as ignoramuses who won't listen to 'expert' opinions (or rather, who listen but are then sceptical). You can't then haul them in as the wise to be listened to in their turn. Well, you can, but...

.... it's about as convincing as your usual alarmist approach.

'We are simply not breeding our own people'; that comment from Zorro send a chill down my spine.

'we are simply not breeding our own people'

there are no words to say how that makes me feel -

1933 anyone?

The referendum was about Europe- European migrants account for about 5% of the population in the UK - FIVE! And most of them employed doing great jobs, including the ones our people, our un-employed, either do NOT want to do- or are incapable of doing, or not qualified to do. You can't put a youngster through nurse training who don't have any quaifications and can't get out of bed in the morning, or show no empathy for others, etc.

Granjura

You seem to have a very biased and uncharitable view about the young of the UK. It is very sad.

Wow Granjura! Talk about tarring them all with the same brush!

granjura can I ask your opinion of the Swiss government denying citizenship to 2 Muslim girls as they refused to swim with boys. The government said that they ( the Muslim girls) were not fully integrating into Swiss culture.
There was another case where 2 Muslim boys refused to shake hands with their femail teacher.

'Foreigners' outpopulated native Americans hundreds of years ago!

Food, education and health services aren't finite services. Food can be grown more efficiently and schools and hospitals can be built.

I think the point GJ is making is that the majority of immigrants that come here, come here to work and are capable/willing/qualified to do what they do. SOME of our young people (and older ones) are either not educationally qualified for the jobs available or simply do not wish to do them. The last unemployment figure I saw for East Anglia was just 3.6%, so there should be jobs available, regardless of the high immigrant population in that area. Unfortunately those vacant jobs are not being filled by our home grown workers, for the reasons stated on many cases.
My son's company has been trying to recruit it and accounting graduates for months with little success, they are now advertising abroad. (and they do pay good money)

No I am not tarring them with the same brush- at all. But there are many young people who are long-term unemployed and who have no or very few qualifications and who just do not want to do some of the jobs available to those without qualifications- and who are just not able to take up some of the training for other jobs either. They exist here too btw.

Petra, the swimming thing is difficult- I am not sure how I feel on this one. In the UK, girls only session would be provided for teenage girls, and they would be allowed to swim with leggings and a t-shirt. The whole thing about the 2 boys not shaking hands with the teacher was blown out of all proportions by the SVP/UDC, the right wing party. It was totally avoidable had the teacher, the school and the Press not exploited the situation to stir trouble.

Thank you GandTea- exactly.

And someone who leaves school barely able to read and do basic maths, cannot just be trained to become a nurse or a doctor- or an IT specialist. In the old days, they would find employment in mines and factories- but now there is no-where for them- or jobs they just don't want to do.

BTW, in my region of Switzerland, famous for its precision engineering and high-end watchmaking- we have the same problems, to some extent. Un-employment is only about 5%- and we have 1000s and 1000s of French people commuting into Switzerland (we call them 'frontaliers' border workers) to work here. And many say, why do we give them the jobs when we have 5% unemployed- and the same holds true. You can't take a young person off the un-employment register to do the job of a hghly qualified, trained and experienced watch-maker. And they would be wither, totally unsuitable, or totally unwilling, to work in old people's homes, etc- and they just refuse to do cleaning jobs and the like.

Our local GVT is doing everything it can to train those who show some ability and willing to do some of the jobs, but in many cases it proves expensive and a total waste of time- although there are a few happy endings, for a few.

Switzerland have their very own Nigel Farage in a politician called Christoph Blocher who is just as willing to use anything to stir up trouble.

I'm actually still waiting to find out how I'might going to be pulling together with everybody else. I am beginning to wonder if there's an answer or it's just one of these very easy throwaway phrases that don't actually mean anything. Please help me out here.

I thought Zorro21's post was illuminating in so many ways. Thank you for putting it on.

Happily there is a move back to apprenticeships, where young people that are not academically gifted, but are potentially skilled, can learn essential trades and shine in there own way.

I was useless at school, hated it, failed 11+ 13+ and left school at 15.

But I loved engineering, and became an engineering apprentice (7 years in all). Went on to achieve an engineering degree and a senior role in engineering/IT as a production engineer and later designer of engineering software.

We have to nurture our young people and encourage their capabilities.