Could Labour 'split'. Tom Watson calls off talks.

Well, looks as if we stuck with Corbyn untll he loses the next election

The only people who will gain by all this will be UKIP [imo] .

And once again the Labour Party will be consigned to the wilderness years leaving the Torys to do whatever they want. I can only hope that TM isn't another Thatcher.

Don't despair too much yet. I know people who have joined in that 48 hour period to vote against JC. Some had already joined but not before the cut off date so paid twice. Even if he wins, and with a smaller majority, it sends a message. I either read or heard on the news that the PLP were planning to vote to pick the Shadow Cabinet by vote as they used to. If they do that he will be stuck, initially, with people he knows do not support him but at least the Party will have ministers who can hold the Government to account. Deselection is not always as easy as people think. All the younger members signing up do grow up a lot in four years and if he is losing by-elections or even the Big One support will fade away. The young like to win. We oldies are better at the long game.
I am wondering when May will call a General Election although she needs a vote of no confidence in her (or her Government) or the Act repealed.

Devo, I am really trying not to despair, I just can't forget those wilderness years labour was in , on the bright side if Corbyn stays as leader this will be the first general election in over fifty years when i will have no need or the will to canvas .

What do we think,of Owen Smith ?

Anniebach I sympathise and agree with all your despair, but playing Devil's Advocate a bit, how much of the bullying and threats have been exaggerated by the media and how much of the vile behaviour occasioned by J.C's handlers, rather than the man himself. He still stands for the ideas that we believe in and for which we elected him. If he is unelectable in a general election (and I think he is) I can't see Owen Smith being much more acceptable to the voting public. Don't we now at least need someone like J.C. with a history of niggling away at the present government and exposing their shortcomings and manipulation of the facts? Or am I just a naive old fart?

Outofstep, no we do not need an opposition leader who cannot even form a shadow cabinet to niggle away at the government, . Niggling does not build housing, does not put food on the table of the poor, does not protect those being exploited on zero hours contracts, dies not save the N.H.S, does not provide home care for the elderly, does not protect the mentally ill from lack of care, dies not give the disabled their benefits back, it does give the oposition leader the opertunity to keep banging on about the young and how we should all get behind him . His speech this morning was same old , he is not aware of the fact - action speaks louder than words. He is cunning, selfish and self centred

Point taken Anniebach hadn't seen his latest speech. I was trying to be hopeful, I guess I will just revert to my usual gloomy and pessimistic position. I think most politicians are cunning and self-centred. I had hoped and thought that he was different.

I don't think most politicians are cunning and self centred , the ones I know care deeply and I am sure there are many more the same

AB, I too will not canvas unless it is the excellent MP I have now. I do not intend to put up posters, the first election for donkeys yonks. I agree with Outofstep that it is unlikely to be JC doing the bullying and intimidation but I do know first hand that it is taking place and has only arisen since he became leader. He is being manipulated. That is a weakness in itself. I am willing to bet that a large number of those signing up haven't a clue what Labour principles are, let alone Trot ones. It will be a rude awakening. It all depends whether, like the monarchy, the firm (i.e.Labour Party) is stronger than the individual.

I still don't know who in the rest of the PLP holds the same views as I do. The only person that I would have felt able to vote for would have been Sadiq Khan - and unfortunately he is no longer available. The rest are either tainted with association or chancers who will bend with the wind and are more interested in their career. Sorry to be blunt, but I think this is the end of the Labour Party as we have known it and it will finally split into those who are very slightly left of centre and similar to the leftish Tories, and are likely to form a new version of the old SDP, and those who are the rump of the old committed socialist party. Maybe this is the best way forward.

Devo, we haven't had a labour MP since the seventies when the boundaries were changed, the last election the Libs lost to a Tory . We get a first time candidate and always work hard to encourage him, several have gone on to win seats at the next election . I also canvass in labour seats in South and Mid Wales, plus telephone csvassing, I cannot in all honesty speak in favour of Corbyn , why all that work for a party the leader wants to split

Annie, Mammie put this article on the Brexit Watch thread but I think it bears reading re the change of politics generally.

I don't think politics as usual is a choice any more.

Thank you Gracesgran, not being unkind but have read so many links attacking the Labour Party and praising Corybyn I am too upset to read anymore at the moment

Good grief, Emily Thornberry the shadow foreign secretary is now also the shadow Brexit Secretary. She will have to shadow Johnson, Davies and Fox

I'm sorry you are finding this so distressing annie, as it is clear you have been a committed and very active Labour Party member for many years. These are strange times indeed and goodness knows what will be the outcome.

I do have to say Devorgilla that I find your comment that 'a large number of those signing up haven't a clue what labour principles are, let alone Trot ones' extremely patronising. Does this include all those who have signed up to vote against Jeremy Corbyn as well as those who have done so to support him? I think it is an absurd generalisation about such an unprecedented number of people putting their money where their views are, whichever way that might go.

Will someone explain why Corbyn is regarded as the saviour of the vunerable when his campaign speech was just quoting what has always been Labour Party policies . It isn't the policies , stupid man, it's him , he is not a leader

Good luck, Emily Thornberry, I say!

Devorgilla says of JC
He is being manipulated. That is a weakness in itself.

Would people think it is the people around him that are manipulating him, or is it his character per se, that allows it, or that circumstances have changed?
Or perhaps even a combination?

And ab. Does you think he is not a leader because of the "everything can be sorted by sitting around a table" mentality? But in reality it can't?

Anniebach Thu 21-Jul-16 12:24:56

Annie this isn't attacking the Labour Party - why would I suggest you read something like that?

It is a very in depth article about how ideas which can seem extreme become mainstream, focussing initially on the idea that we would not vote to leave the EU but also relevant to the Trump effect and to the Corbyn effect. Just thought anyone interested in politics might find it interesting.

No obieone, I do not mean that. A good leader knows to help the vunerable an election has to be won. To win an election a leader has to reach out across the country , there can be no chance of winning by support by only drumming up votes from the far left. And the young who are getting rather excited about a .british revolution

Sorry gracesgran, I meant I have decided to avoid links because so many are from the extremists and I am really tired as well as upset , I didn't mean to be rude to you, sorry X

Obieone, I think a weakness which is put forward as a strength . How can he say today he is reaching out a hand of friendship when his closest friend said yesterday when the boundaries are changed ALL labour MP's will have to face deselection , this is blackmail and it disgusts me

Slight digression... I remembered the name Emily Thornberry but couldn't remember why I had come across it before. Did a search and was reminded that she's the "white van man" woman.