clinton v trump

Grannypiper ... what's with all the hate?

Things that a UK or European citizen who has not lived in the US would not understand come into play.

America is very racist compared to Europe. Mixed race couples are still 'stared' at. Just as in this country, religious freedom is a right, but you would not know it as only Christians and Jews enjoy that freedom. Being non-religious or pro-science is especially frowned upon in the 'Bible-Belt'. So much for separation of church and state (in the Constitution).

The right to own as many guns as you wish with the least amount of background checking is a huge right-wing platform. (Selling guns is big business, so the 2nd Constitutional amendment is sacrosanct). Even moderate Republicans want to keep guns out of the hands of those on the no-fly list, but they get shouted down.

Access to reasonably priced healthcare is not a right in the US. The Affordable Healthcare Act (Obamacare) is seen as a sin of the highest order. There will never be an NHS in the US. After age 65+ and you go onto Soc Sec, you get access to Medicare, but it requires huge top ups now. My friends are paying upwards of £1000.00 a MONTH for 'Medigap' for them and their spouse. Except for highly-paid people, or strong unions, no one gets healthcare as part of a retirement package. In fact, the big car mfrs have been in a mess trying to fund union retirees healthcare plans. Going broke!

Finding ways to NOT pay your income tax is seen as a virtue of the highest order to be pursued with as many lawyers and accountants as you can afford. (Look at the trouble Greece and some other Med countries are in because of this). Or in the alternative, go under the radar and work cash in hand...but you won't gain any state pension that way. But never ever pay your taxes willingly, even if you are paying a low rate.

The list is long...

Yorkshiregal Bill Clinton was a good president. Crappy husband, but a good president. Trump is a serial adulterer, has dumped two wives because they got too 'old'. He has a foul mouth and a thin skin. He does not want to be president. He wants to win an election. I am more and more convinced he would find the life too restricting. People telling him what to do, when to do it, all day long. If he truly wanted to be president, he'd do more to inspire confidence in potential voters. He is not, he is throwing votes away.

He's got problems that cannot be fixed now. His polls have tilted since the tapes have come out about his star status entitling him to molest women. I watch the feed on my old hometown newspaper and the tide there has turned against him whereas before it was rather pro-Trump. He screwed up big time.

I feel badly for Republicans like Paul Ryan, John McCain, even Mitt Romney. But as I said in a previous post, only the most persistent and obnoxious people are willing to put themselves out there to be raked over by the press and opponents.

Something has to change.

I went to see John Pilger last night and, horrifyingly, he said he thought Trump might be the better bet, because in his more lucid moments he has said he would talk to Russia, whereas Hillary won't. He reckons she could be the most dangerous president ever.
OK, not I'm going to put my head back in the sand where it belongs.

If Trump gets in there is no chance of America giving up on guns. If Hilary gets in it will be her husband pulling the strings and we all know what a plonker he was as President.

The worry is that if Trump gets in, and Putin is hell bent on WWIII God help us, because they might between them wipe this planet out.

All I can say is 'Is that the best they can do for candidates for the top job?' Surely they have well educated, honest, non-aggressive people in America? Obama was great imo.

I would not even bother to turn out for either of them.

The last two 'debates' were just a slanging match, and each of them were scouring everything to find some dirt on the other. Well I suppose they are politicians aren't they.

I often think that much of America - at least the vast area away from both coasts - is on quite another planet from us, so it's no use making comparisons. Politically I think we have far more in common with many European countries than with the US.

My sister has lived in the US ( Massachusetts) for well over 30 years and is a staunch Democrat, but she doesn't like Hillary at all - far too pally with the bankers and big business in her opinion. Needless to say she loathes Trump, so she'll have to hold her nose and vote Hillary on the day.

I do find it strange that such a large country with so many well educated people is unable to produce two better or more appealing candidates than these.

Anya - you've obviously met my husband!

Well said willa45, I hold my breath at the outcome as its by no means a 'done deal'.

Since I'm American, I'll start out by saying I'm not a Trump supporter. I guess the operative question is how can anyone in their right mind support him? So where to begin? He doesn't have any clear policies, other than building a wall to keep out Mexican immigrants, but there is something much deeper at stake here.

There are many closeted bigots, racists and misogynists among his followers, as well as angry right wing extremists who love their guns. These are all people who have found a like minded 'hero' in Donald Trump, who (through his own empirical actions and astounding rhetoric) has given them 'permission' to release and even flaunt their inner 'Kraken'. Other more sane supporters believe that because he is anti establishment he represents a welcome change. To them I've said, "Be careful what you wish for!"

Truth is Trump doesn't have what it takes. He is self aggrandizing, narcissistic, thin skinned, petty, vindictive, and immature. He doesn't belong anywhere near the White House, much less in close proximity to any nuclear red buttons. Stated more simply, a disgruntled child who lacks a steady temperament cannot be an effective head of state and a leader and a bully are two very different things.

Hillary Clinton has political baggage, part propaganda and part truth; but none of it in my opinion, is relevant enough to deem her unfit. Having said that, she is the only other alternative we have and that is why many Republicans like myself are supporting her. She may be not be perfect, but she does have the experience, the temper and the qualifications to be a good President. Having our first woman President will also a source of pride.

Whilst i would never vote for Trump, i dislike the fact that ANYONE who dares to cast a vote in his favour is seen as a thick racist who hates anyone who is in the slightest bit different to themselves. Many millions of people agree with him and will vote for him so they cant be cast aside as idiots, maybe they are fed up with being at the back of the queue or are fed up being called racist or being told that the book they see as holy doesnt matter and that other peoples holy book matters more, or ANYTHING that upsets them is their problem because they ARE wrong to be married to someone of the opposite sex or the very fact they are married ! Forget Trump and ask why so many people are willing to say I NEED A VOICE

Lewlew and Rinouchka - very interesting posts, thanks.
Maybe the UK isn't much different, just lagging behind.

Anya, that is Tony Blair to a t

squirrel5 With press and opposing party intrustion/scrutiny, only the most persistent and/or obnoxious people seem to want to run. Since Watergate, the Republicans have never forgiven the Democrats and it's been an 'us vs them' Congress ever since. Then comes the internet and shock jocks, like Rush Limbaugh.

But even before that... I well remember in 1972 Senator Ed Muskie's torture by the Union Leader. It was no wonder that Colin Powell's wife did not want him to run.

Dirty Trick Behind a Setback

Four years later, with endorsements from most of the nation's leading Democratic politicians, Mr. Muskie was considered a prohibitive favorite for the Presidential nomination. His reputation for probity, many politicians felt, would give him a good chance against Mr. Nixon, who long before the Watergate break-in in June 1972, had been suspected of political dirty tricks by many voters.

As it turned out, such a trick played a role in an incident that helped doom the man from Maine.

All through the New Hampshire primary campaign in 1972, the conservative Manchester Union Leader attacked him, partly on the basis of an anonymous letter accusing him of using the derogatory term "Canuck" in referring to the state's French Canadians. It emerged later that the letter had been sent to the paper by Kenneth W. Clawson, a political aide to Mr. Nixon.

The Union Leader also ran an article that accused Mr. Muskie's wife, Jane, of smoking, drinking and cursing in an "unladylike" way, in a day when the private lives of politicians, to say nothing of politicians' wives, were mostly private.

www.nytimes.com/1996/03/27/us/edmund-s-muskie-81-dies-maine-senator-and-a-power-on-the-national-scene.html

Rinouchka I am same as you, but gave up hope on getting my absentee ballot from my last state of residence... the town clerk is a dyed in wool right-wing-nut and 'forgets' to send it despite phone calls! My late brother used to pick it up for me before he moved to FL. I took my UK citizenship a few years ago, so unless travelling to the US, my US passport stays in the drawer!

I do hope you are claiming your entitlement to the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion relief. US/UK/Europe have a tax treaty

www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion

It was interesting to read about voter apathy now returning in some of the younger generation who are so turned off by the nastiness of politics now. My own family and friends have Trumpers who won't speak to me now. I have never held a gun even though my brother was a police officer. I have no desire to at all.

Try to find a film or TV programme from the US that does not have a gun in it. Ermm... well, except for Big Bang Theory (I think).

I only go back to visit a small handful of people now, or to travel around places not visited when living there. If Trump gets in, we won't be visiting the US for at least the next four years.

Seeing Michelle Obama with Hillary in the news this morning... now I'd for for Michelle! But... maybe family dynasties in office are not a good idea which is why some Democrats don't care for Hillary. But the alternative is sickening. I wonder if Bernie Sanders might have gotten the nomination if he'd been 15 years younger?

Anyways... fingers crossed that voters dump Trump.

I just cannot understand , that a country as large as the USA, can only come up with Hillary and Trump,as prospective leaders,my hubby has pointed out to me the different voting system, etc, and all the huge amount of dollars pumped in to their campaigns,will be very interesting!!

If you're a dyed-in-the-wool Republican, Trump's catch-phrases are appealing.
The danger is that with a Republican president and a Republican Senate, Things Might Get Done. And, when that happens, Things Get Broken. Look at Thatcher.

Referendum

I enjoyed your submission Riniuchka. Having stayed in America recently, it's been interesting to see similar parallels with the recent UK Recerendum.

I think the American people will be the losers regardless of who is elected president.

Agree with Anniebach, definately mental instability.

I grew up in America and am an American citizen, pay American AND UK income tax( the USA taxes their citizens wherever they live), although I have now lived in Europe for twice as long as I ever lived in the USA. I have also just voted by absentee ballot, as have our dual citizenship children. Don't like some of what Hillary appears to have done but have not hesitated in casting my vote.

Trump, however, appeals to the disgruntled, older( but some younger Americans also like him), the limited in scope( but not necessarily in intelligence, sadly), the anti-government, anti-welfare, anti medicare, racist( but not always openly so) Americans who see themselves as anti-establishment. Watch clips of followers. Many are also women! What appeals, above all, is his wealth( he is mega-rich), a successful businessman( not that successful, but they do not examine his failures), a "celebrity", says what he thinks without filtering, appeals to those who HATE Obama, as well as Hillary. Remember that anything linked to "socialism" =communism in the eyes of the silent majority. They hate "foreigners", despite that fact that most of them started life as such!
I was gobsmacked when a former classmate( not a friend)from high school in NYC and a Trump supporter posted a link on FB with the BNP( not just UKIP). I have not yet blocked her because I want to see how she justifies such leanings.

The multitude of educated friends supporting Hillary( many of whom would have preferred the unelectable but lovely Bernie) all feel positive towards what will be the final result. BUT, I am wary because of what happened with BREXIT. There are many parallels, although many differences, as well. Admiration( of wealth and tax-dodging), fear, hate of the other, conviction of one's own superiority may win out. Let us hope the polls are right, but it isn't over until every vote is counted a d proven to be fairly done......

Wow! Sorry for this long diatribe. Have never submtted this much to GN!

We are like the American's Annibach, we share a very similar culture, unsurprisingly.
Yes, Donald Trump has a narcissistic personality disorder. No, I don't believe he's like most politicians.
I don't want to rehash or start a polarised discussion on our Brexit vote, we already have a thread for that but I do feel the issues are similar. The Donald has come up with simple solutions to complex problems. He uses inflammatory, offensive language about groups of people he dislikes or blames for America's difficulties. He'll build a wall to keep out Mexicans, he'll stop any Muslim entering the US until the terrorism issue is resolved, he'll stop Isil, he'll make America great again, he'll provide full employment. No policies of course to set out how he'll do this. He hurls every possible kind of abuse at his opponent.
I do hope Hilary wins but share the fears expressed by American friends, that they could wake up to the danger of Trump as president.

Reading Tricia's views on the americans I think we are so like them

Democracy is corrupt the world over-- but what do we do? Being ludicrously rich and getting even richer is now an ambition.
All government money comes from people's earnings and ludicrous and numerous indirect taxes, but they have lost the ability to only do what supports the people. It's our money! The rich should not have the power they do they are tax avoiders not payers. Most big spending projects are to support big business, the tax avoiders.

Sounds just like most politicians

Does he have NPD? Very likely, but I think most UK people make the mistake of thinking that the American public/voters are like us. I don't think they are.
They're influenced by their history, including slavery, the "Go West" movement (guns), the Christian ideology of the Founding Fathers, the independence of each state, respect for celebs. in the film industry etc.
Any Grans from USA on here?