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Brexit 5

(265 Posts)
thatbags Sun 20-Nov-16 07:41:16

Oh joy! Oh wonder! Tony effing Blair is trying to get on the Remoaner train to derail Brexit. "The PM's a lightweight and Corbyn's a nutter so I'm back".

How jolly! Everyone will be so pleased. We love you, Tony. [fingers down throat emoji]

daphnedill Sat 03-Dec-16 12:23:52

It sounds as though you are trying to shut down the thread. It is probably true that people have said much about Brexit, but it's not over yet by a long way.

I also have dictionaries - print and online - so am perfectly capable of looking up the definition of 'sovereignty'. If you have access to academic libraries, you will also find that reams have been written about the concept. As you quite rightly claim, even 'experts' can't agree. It would appear that you are unwilling/unable to give a definition which links with the EU. Ah well!

If you have found FullFact inaccurate, maybe you could give examples. I have used the site in the past and followed the links which it gives. I queried something once, so emailed the site owners. I received a reply within a few days explaining a misunderstanding. A note was subsequently added to the article. Maybe you should do the same, before you rubbish the site.

If you're not interested in further contributions to the thread, it's really not too difficult to avoid it and allowing people who want to discuss further to do so.

thatbags Sat 03-Dec-16 17:00:56

What Gisella Stuart says.

daphnedill Sat 03-Dec-16 17:10:43

Sorry, she lost me by using 'remoaner'. If she wants a grown-up debate, she needs to use grown-up language. She was one of the worst to lie about the NHS and keep going on about 'taking back control' like some mantra, whilst dodging what it actually meant.

Like the others, she's on the back foot, because she doesn't really know what Brexit means.

rosesarered Sat 03-Dec-16 17:22:07

I can imagine cunco heaving an exasperated sigh over your post dd as he posted a perfectly polite and reasonable explanation about why he did not want to continue going over old ground on this thread.
I don't think any MP is on the back foot and nobody will know exactly what Brexit means ( other than leaving the EU) until negotiations begin.

daphnedill Sat 03-Dec-16 17:30:27

Cunco can sigh as much as he/she wants. His/her posts struck me as somebody with an identity to hide. Just saying!

He/she hadn't been a member that long (allegedly) so there was plenty which could be discussed. The process hasn't even started yet, roses, but if you have nothing further to add, you also have the choice to ignore the thread.

daphnedill Sat 03-Dec-16 17:32:07

I jolly well hope that somebody does know what they want Brexit to mean. It's absolutely ridiculous that people should go into negotiations without a plan and a mandate on the form it should take.

rosesarered Sat 03-Dec-16 17:48:59

Who said that I hadn't anything further to add?
It's also ridiculous to think that the Cabinet will go into negotiations without a plan, of course they will want the best deal, the moon on a stick, and there will be push and pull until a compromise is reached.
There won't really be anything new on BREXIT this side of Christmas.

rosesarered Sat 03-Dec-16 17:51:03

Why should cunco have an identity to hide?What a very odd thing to say.He has mentioned his wife on another thread, so a lot of us knew that he was a man.

nigglynellie Sat 03-Dec-16 18:23:53

Some odd comments on here!! No wonder cunco doesn't want to comment anymore!! Identity to hide? why the need to reveal it if you do t want to?!! needn't comment anymore, you too roses?!! Have I missed something? confused

Ana Sat 03-Dec-16 18:35:14

As for 'trying to shut down the thread' - impossible on GN unless H decide to delete it!

We've had heavy black lines drawn in the past, which of course just made people post even more...

daphnedill Sat 03-Dec-16 20:15:04

Tally ho!

Agreed then!

Those of us who feel we want to comment on the progress of Brexit can do so. Those who aren't interested can ignore the thread.

Way hay! Democracy rules!

daphnedill Sat 03-Dec-16 20:16:18

Yes, you probably have missed something, niggly. Never mind!

rosesarered Sat 03-Dec-16 20:26:13

No, niggly you haven't missed anything ( nothing worthwhile at any rate) grin

rosesarered Sat 03-Dec-16 20:27:47

Since we are all interested in Brexit, I should think we will all be posting from time to time.

nigglynellie Sun 04-Dec-16 09:51:52

Oh dear dd, surely you can do better than that for repartee?! On the other hand......!

Cunco Mon 05-Dec-16 10:22:53

I hadn't intended to write again on this thread but Daphne's extraordinary reaction to my last post leaves too many unanswered questions.

I am a married Grandad of 3 girls. A while ago, I was on Gransnet under a different alias until I decided that it wasn't for me. I returned to get people's reaction to Smart Meters [my first thread] because I have to decide whether to have one.

Like anyone else, I value my anonymity on this website but I have nothing in particular to hide. I wish I could quote 'except my genius' but I don't want to start another hare running. I ask people to judge me on what contribute. I have no reason to try to shut down this thread even if I was stupid enough to think I could. I had simply had enough of going over old ground.

If memory serves, Daphne asked me how I defined 'sovereignty' and I replied. Earlier, I was advised to use Full Fact as a source of unbiased opinion and I did to discover, inter alia and contrary to opinion stayed as fact, that EU directives and regulations are not all debated through Parliament and the UK veto cannot be used to stop everything our government opposes.

Brexit must be discussed. It would be good if, somewhere, it were discussed with both sides respecting the other's point of view. I am not sure that it is here but for Grans who think otherwise, enjoy!

rosesarered Mon 05-Dec-16 13:07:17

I agree, I am not sure that it is here either.

thatbags Mon 05-Dec-16 16:42:45

Well said, cunco, last two paragraphs especially.

thatbags Mon 05-Dec-16 17:10:25

Good stuff from Libby Purves:

The blame culture is debasing real distress

December 5 2016, 12:01am, The Times

Libby Purves

University dons counselled for Brexit stress and graduate suing Oxford over failing to get a first need a dose of Kipling

Where’s Kipling when you need him? It’s only 20 years since Britain voted If its favourite poem, to the horror of delicate souls who wanted something — well, less manly and more Manley Hopkins. Clearly the pre-Blair Britain of 1995 was still taken with the idea of keeping your head in triumph and disaster, watching a life’s work broken and building it up again with worn-out tools, while never breathing a word about your loss. Come to think of it, John Major was prime minister then: the man who after a humiliating landslide delivered my favourite election-night dawn moment. Arriving at party HQ he grinned like a boy and said: “Oh, all right, so we lost!”. Very Kipling, very cricket.

Few voting for the poem If in 1995 or since would have expected to live up to its granite determination, but admired it as an aim, accepting its message that we are stronger than we think: willpower can force “heart and nerve and sinew” to hold on through despair. Today we should rewrite it: “If you can shed your tears and speak your grievance / And tell yourself it’s surely not your fault; / If you can blame, and faint, and hire a lawyer / And spin your sadness into victimhood . . . ” .

At which point I give up on the iambics because no inspirational doggerel can gracefully end with “. . . then you’ll be a self-caring, emotionally intelligent, 21st-century citizen, well done, pet!”.

This gloom is brought on by two news items yesterday, though heaven knows never a day passes without new evidence of our enfeebled attitudes. The first is from Leeds and Nottingham universities, where dons (not students this time) are offered counselling and “wellbeing workshops” to deal with stress and anxiety. Not just the ordinary stress of work, money, family and personal sadness, which is fair enough: we all need a private hug and a rest sometimes, even when outwardly we carry on Kipling. This newly offered remedy is for psychological harm caused by the Brexit vote, and the dreadful fact that nobody is entirely sure what is going to happen (as if we ever could be).

The Leeds academics are told to expect the stages of grief: shock, denial, depression, bargaining, anger. They are warned about the perils of news bulletins: “If you receive a lot of news shocks, your body is likely to experience fear.”

Cue extreme irritation from anyone who has experienced actual grief. If you have sat by a deathbed or wept at a funeral recently you may, like me, have an unkind desire to take the pious leaflet writers of Leeds by the throat and shake them as a dog shakes a rat while barking: “Brexit is not personal, it is not necessarily catastrophic, it is not total war.” Wobbly people should not be soupily encouraged to act as if it was. Brexit is a nuisance, a fresh source of uncertainty in a world always uncertain, a turbulent bend in the fast-flowing river of history. But if you encourage people to claim “grief” at a political vote in a safe country — especially before the damn thing’s actually taken effect — you belittle the word. This is both terrible and tactless, given that all across the world there are thousands daily being given good reason to feel grief, sorrow, devastation, helplessness, hunger and terror. A lot of them are taking it with remarkable dignity. Moreover, if the authors of these university leaflets are fully qualified mental health professionals — I rather hope not, because I thoroughly respect real ones who treat real mental illness — they are degrading the whole profession’s credibility.

People claiming ‘grief’ at a political vote belittle the word
Still, at least any dons who take up the embarrassing offer will only be wasting half-days on full pay “enhancing their skills for resilience in response to the Brexit decision” or having mindfulness lessons (what kind of professional scholar needs lessons in concentration from some half-baked hipster guru?).

But an even less Kiplingesque modern habit is the determination to find somebody to blame, and sue them because your life is not fabulous. So flip a few news pages and meet Faiz Siddiqui, who graduated from Brasenose College, Oxford, many summers ago and didn’t get a first.

He says that poorish teaching pulled his grade down (which may be partly true, as there was a shortage in his subject).

Now, however — despite having qualified as a solicitor since — Mr Siddiqui extrapolates from Oxford’s possible deficiency. He has failed to become a top international commercial lawyer, so the chancellor and college must be sued for £1 million-plus for loss of earnings, because this self-pitying chap thinks that if he had got a first he would have automatically flourished, and not be suffering from “depression and insomnia” 16 years later.

Life is full of shocks and disappointments. Parents, teachers, spouses, friends and fellow voters will let you down from time to time, or just disgracefully fail to see things your way, the bastards! We all suffer sometimes from idiots, foes, and a woeful lack of appreciation.

But as Kipling says, the only way is to be better: “. . . being lied about, don’t deal in lies, / Or being hated, don’t give way to hating”. Have some dignity, have a sense of humour, thank God that you’re not in Aleppo or Mosul or a terminal ward. Not least because those who really are often behave pretty stoically. Psychiatry is for real sickness; lawyers are for real injustices. You don’t reach for either just because life’s a bitch.

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 13:11:18

Red and white and blue Brexit. Good oh! grin Dear oh dear. Still I suppose the poor soul has to find something to say even though everything the government says about Brexit is totally anodyne

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 14:20:07

See Theresa is wearing her overall again.

Ana Tue 06-Dec-16 14:56:54

Grief counselling for trauma caused by the Brexit vote - what kind of students are we producing these days...? hmm

(Mind you, I think one or two on GN needed it at the time! grin)

Ana Tue 06-Dec-16 14:59:40

Oh no! I misread that, it's actually the dons who are being offered counselling! I suppose that makes more sense in a way, they were probably so sure the Remain vote would win...

durhamjen Tue 06-Dec-16 17:29:42

Red, white and blue Brexit, eh?
Netherlands, North or South Korea?
France, Slovakia, Slovenia?
USA, Australia, New Zealand?

durhamjen Tue 06-Dec-16 17:30:54

Panama, as well. Where is her money stashed?