An oath on British Values?

The benefit Mair is to the economy. I know the extremist right's myth is that immigrants drain money out of a country but the reality is that the vast majority contribute a great deal.

I have worked in "working class" areas most of my career and know that in those communities there are those who work hard and who are decent and lovely people and those who are total wastrels. That is within groups that you term 'native' and 'immigrants'. I guess I would find the same in different socio economic groups.
People can be good or bad. Their ethnic origins/class etc. are irrelevent.

The economic situation is a result of internationa and national political decisions not because of "immigrants".
Trying to stir up hate for any group of people and to blame them for a country's difficulties is fascism & against British law. It is how civil wars and international wars strart.

I have only just caught up with this so have not been able to plough through read it all.

Surely we don't want people standing up and promising to be grumpy and, in the face of adversity, to be stalwart and grumpy.

Reading the initial question, I could not define British values either. Personally, I think I am tolerate, rational and caring. I like to make my own decisions. I try not to make stereotypes of any large group of people, even Remain or Leave (which seems to be unusual on Gransnet). I have voted Leave twice in my lifetime because of sovereignty, now and in the future. Neither time was immigration a major factor. I do worry about unplanned population growth but live happily alongside people of different race, religion, sex and sexuality. There are probably good and bad in any large group.

If you look at the way the British people behave, I suspect there are many more like me than the extremes of left or right.

Also populist rhetoric

That was to pen

Good post Cunco I think you are right in your assumptions.
Most British people are moderate in their views.and we like to have fair play.

Immigrants are certainly not a drain on the economy. The evidence is that on balance they make a small positive contribution to the economy, with EU immigrants, because of their age profile, being ahead of non-EU immigrants (a group that includes people bringing spouses etc into the country who may be less likely to be working immediately).
www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/election-2015-briefing-fiscal-impacts-of-migration-to-the-uk/
I've observed personally that immigrants seem far more likely to start a business which is excellent news, because future prosperity of this country is dependent, more than anything, on the successful growth of today's small and medium sized businesses.
The economic prosperity of the USA is built, largely, on the entrepreneurial efforts of various waves of immigrants. And it is still happening e.g. high quality Indian tech graduates, heading for Silicon Valley in droves.
tech.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/startups/indian-entrepreneurs-us-billion-dollar-startups/51452550
But is our esteemed PM trying hard to help UK universities recruit more bright students from abroad? Is she encouraging them to stay afterwards and start new business?
No - she's fixated on the net immigration target that her boss gave her 6 years ago.

It's about politics rather than rational decisions.

This is a little off topic, but contains some relevant points (it's not all about Brexit).

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaM20tSfyXA

There's a whole load of cost/benefit analysis on Fullfact.

fullfact.org/immigration/costs-and-benefits/

No need to tell me, Mair, that you do not trust Fullfact. I do, to the point that I help fund them. I am sure that one fact makes you trust them even less, but I don't care, really.

Mair doesn't trust them, either, daphne.

"Immigrants are certainly not a drain on the economy. The evidence is that on balance they make a small positive contribution to the economy, with EU immigrants, because of their age profile, being ahead of non-EU immigrants (a group that includes people bringing spouses etc into the country who may be less likely to be working immediately)."
www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/election-2015-briefing-fiscal-impacts-of-migration-to-the-uk/

You do realise that this study was a basic input output snapshot and did not take into account immigrants lack of previous contributions to the infrastructure they use (roads, schools, hospitals, housing etc paid for by our parents and grandparents), or the changing impact they are likely to have over time, dont you?

At present the demographic profile of the immigrant population is more youthful than that of the native British population, so more likely to be of working age, and more likly to be in good health, but of course two to three decades from now that will have changed,as their children will have 'taken' from the system, and their health declines with age, and they no longer work.

It is also distorted by the fact that it includes what one might call "high value" immigrants, doctors and many Australians, Americans etc working in highly skilled jobs in the city or in technology and paying higher rate tax. These high contributors compnsate for the majority of low contributors

The fact is that people who are only average wages i.e the majority will over a lifetime be net takers and not net contributers even when the snapshot has caught them at a stage in life of "contributing". This is going to be the situation even for 'hard working Poles' who spend their lives working full time in a distribution warehouse on minimum wage, as for a Somali migrant who has five children and works part time as a cleaner while living in social housing and claiming in work benefits, say no more!

The Migration Observatory you need to realise has a pro immigration agenda (its actually stuffed with immigrants) and is predisposed to present its finings in the most favourable possible light.

What will benefit us as a country is to admit ONLY the 'high value' immigrants, those who ARE going to put in more than they take!
This is what UKIP and Farag wants us to be able to do.

Why should we just allow in people who want to come here to take from us? I am not suggesting this is a 'conscious' motive of course in most cases, but it is the usual reality.

More populist rhetoric. Based mostly on myth and inflammatory language. Identifying the other - in this case immigrants. There will be limitation put on immigration there can be almost no doubt about that, but we will do so without any hate or "otherness" that is how we behave in this country. We have no need for this attempt at division.

As opposed too low grade identified by that idiot Farage. Yet more populist rhetoric. mair try putting your argument in less confrontational language and with more rigour, then I think you will find yourself being taken more seriously.

Based mostly on myth and inflammatory language. Identifying the other - in this case immigrants.

What absolute nonsense. Jess spoke of 'immigrants'. What word would you like to use?

Umm! Well as you are talking about immigrants I guess ........ immigrants

I wouldnt choose the word "grade" myself WW because I dont wish to imply any 'moral worth' (or lack of) I am speaking purely in economic terms, since that is what the study Jess refers to does.

Try to keep the discussion objective rather than making a moral issue of it. I know you find that hard.

There are people who are working here at the moment, but still consider themselves to belong to a different country and who will return there once their contrct or whatever is over, or who expect to work in several different places during their lives.

There are immigrants who have left their own country for good to live here permanently.

To call nthe first lot immigrants is to misname them.

So WW why do you want to continue to allow in unlimited numbers of "low economic value" immigrants, who provide us with no benefit, indeed only disadvantage us and our children and grandchildren, when we could be taking only "high value" who pay in more than they take?

Grade is a favourite word used by your leader.

Please point out to me where I have said" I think we should allow unlimited numbers into the UK" and I will correct it.

You simply keep repeating that myth because you are concerned to keep that thought in people's minds - another populist trick.

I would be interested in your ideas about the economy, and social policy and education and environment and defence and foreign policy etc to get a more rounded picture if your fundamental beliefs as all you seem concerned with is immigration which is a tad limited.

Elegran

You raise a good point, and I think you would find few object to those firt group. Many "high value" Australians in particular fall into that first group, as do many immigrants from Western European countries.

When it comes to migrants from the Third World however, generally the "lowest value" immigrants the vast majority do not go home, for understandable reasons. Eastern Europeans fall somewhere between these two groups butt surveys hav shown the majority intend to stay for ever.

However there is no clear blue line between the 'temporary' and 'permanent' as intentions change over time, and intentions are often concealed. Those illegal overstayers who come here on three month student visas are not going to have revealedd their plans! Many university students too intend to remain here to work after qualifying, and most are not doing 'high value' degrees and many like our own grads just take non graduate jobs and are not a 'benefit' espcially when they later bring in a wife from their homeland.

"high value" and "grade" both sound like fascist terminology to me.
If you mean "people willing to do minimum wage work, work inconvenient hours and live in overcrowded conditions" - well if we stopped taking in EU and other visitors who were willing to tick those boxes, London would grind to a halt. No catering of any kind, no cleaning, no hotels open etc etc

Please point out to me where I have said" I think we should allow unlimited numbers into the UK" and I will correct it.

Of course you give that impression because you are a Remainer (indeed a Bremoaning Remainer)

Remaining in the EU = Support for unlimited immigration from and via the EU
(bear in mind any Third Worlder who has EU citizenship or permanent residency can come here).

You resolutely refuse to say how you would wish to see this changed (if at all) and how many immigrants (ball park figures) you would find acceptable.

I would like to see gross immigration reduced to under 100K a year myself, and highly selective, the creme de la creme.
I would deal with any temporary skill shortages by using temporary immigrants on strict contracts, with no hope of permanent settlement.

What about you?
Set out your stall your own wishes only no generic ramblings.

"When it comes to migrants from the Third World however, generally the "lowest value" immigrants the vast majority do not go home, for understandable reasons."

The UK has had complete control over immigration from the Third World for many decades. If 'illegal overstayers' aren't deported, that's down to the efficiency (or lack of) of the UK immigration authorities.

I wonder what a 'high value' degree is. Whatever it is, the students are still paying top prices and keeping UK universities afloat. Many of them actually go on to become relatively low paid researchers and scientists, thus boosting the UK economy.