Berlin

So were mine- I can assure you- until some comments here side-tracked to immigration and refugees.

Hmm...

I'm wondering if intelligence is behind not only the stepping up of security around Buckingham Palace but the decision made for the Queen and D of E not to travel by train to Sandringham today because they both have heavy colds.

It may be true that they're unwell but not having her travelling around the country at this moment in time could be a wise decision.

@Ww

It would appear that the suspect emigrated to Italy in 2012. He served a prison sentence in Italy for arson and has been convicted for a crime in Tunisia, presumably before 2012. Maybe that's why he didn't want to go back to Tunisia.

I don't think Tunisians have the right to go to France, although Algerians had the choice immediately after independence. Historically, Tunisia had as many ties with Italy as it did with France and the old Tunisian government encouraged people to emigrate, but monitored its overseas citizens to make sure they didn't involve themselves in anti-government initiatives.

Interestingly, this man left Tunisia at the beginning of the 'Arab Spring' season before IS moved in. He was probably radicalised in Europe rather than sent by IS. Tunisia is the most secular of all the Arab states, although there are still groups within the country which resent the secular constitution.

He has been arrested three times by the German police, but released on each occasion, despite being known to intelligence services. He entered Germany in 2015 and his asylum application was rejected. However, he couldn't be deported, because the Tunisians refused to recognise him as a Tunisian citizen.

I'm sure there's more to this, but you have to ask yourself what the heck the German police and intelligence services were playing at. I think it's unfair to blame Merkel's policy on immigration, because he was already in Europe before the migrant crisis developed and was already on the radar. On the face of it, it seems like a failure by the authorities to monitor him.

Let's hope he is caught without any further loss of life.

Yes, and sometimes we have to backtrack on our initial reaction, (myself included). Angela Merkel is a humanitarian and as you say daphnedill she could not have foreseen these awful events. She must be so saddened by the tragic outcome. Germany is a country which has worked hard to learn from its past mistakes and this misery must hit deep.

And yes, I also think the German police and intelligence have messed up when they knew this man was a criminal and about to plot atrocities.

The Tunisian bit is complicated, but I believe it was a time bomb waiting to happen. We are now into a third generation whose grandparents came over to Paris, ostensibly to work and rebuild, but were placed in ghettos in the banlieues - poor housing, poor education, and never integrated into French society. There is resentment and hostility which leads to their radicalisation. No one has come up with the answers and I for one fear for the next chapter in history.

Thanks for the thumbs up, Lillie. I know I'm speaking against the grain. I'm as appalled as anybody else and just don't know the answers, but I really feel that we need to hold the centre ground and not do IS's work for them.

I agree with you about the Muslims in France. I know some French people will claim the the secular constitution doesn't recognise difference, but I know from French Muslim friends, that there is a huge amount of discrimination. There are a number of French Muslims working in British schools, because they say that the UK is less discriminatory than France. I've visited the 'banlieues' in Paris and they're horrible. The first generation made a positive decision to emigrate, so put up with it, but the second/third generation provide a ripe breeding ground for radicalisation.

I think (well, I least I hope) that Germany's collective guilt will save it from a xenophobic backlash. More than any other country it knows where xenophobia and racism can lead. I think Merkel will hang on in the next election - probably with different coalition partners.

I must admit that I find it strange that the German police and intelligence seem to have messed up. Surely there are some former Stasi people around who could give some advice - or maybe they and close surveillance have become taboo too.

This is a link to just about everything anybody ever wanted to know about emigration from Tunisia (and a load people probably didn't want to know):

www.migrationpolicy.org/article/revolution-and-political-transition-tunisia-migration-game-changer

There were plenty of people who foresaw the events Lillie. Many gransnet threads about it. And elsewhere of course.

re Muslims in France - first they form a much bigger proportion of the population than in the UK:
France 9.6%
UK 4.6%
Germany 4.3%
Second, I get the impression that French people are much more openly racist than in the UK. I don't think they have the same degree of 'PC' (and possibly anti-racist legislation.)

They don't have anti-racist legislation, because legally they don't recognise different races/religions. They hide behind the constitution and claim everybody is equal - except they're not. They don't even know how many Muslims live in France, because they can't ask for details.

The suspect moved to Europe in 2011. Did people foresee events then? Did people realise that the German police would make such a mess?

How would you have managed the situation, Ankers?

I was very heartened to see an article about Muslims in Manchester handing out parcels to the homeless.
This is what should be happening now, rather than trying to blame Muslims or the German police for what happened.
As said earlier, we are doing IS's work for them if we continue to blame Muslims.

We know Berlin very well and were there last Christmas. We know the area around the church where the market is held. This church was left severely damaged after the allied bombs as a monument to peace.
I feel frightened about what is happening to our world and very very sad for the innocent victims and their families who died or were injured in this latest atrocity.

TriciaF- I agree. Historical reasons for that of course, as France had colonised most of North Africa- they committed atrocities during all that time, and during the Algerian war- and the wounds, both sided are still VERY recent.

silverlining48 my family were there last year for the Christmas markets, staying right near where it happened. They went somewhere else this year, I am so thankful.

re: anti-racist legislation in France, i saw this:
www.thelocal.fr/20161222/french-mayor-to-face-trial-for-saying-high-number-of-muslim-pupils-is-a-problem

At least the German police didn't shoot an innocent man Daphne -Charles de Menezez ?

He wouldn't have been shot if he had stopped when he was told to do so.

That was as series of tragic misunderstandings all round. In Menezes case, if he hadn't run because he was here illegally (visa had run out a while ago) then he would never have been shot.

However, that really has nothing at all to do with the Berlin tragedy.....unless it simply highlights that sometimes police get it wrong.In the case of the German police, they thought he was just a low life and not a possible terrorist.

the young Pakistani run away when pursued by a German from the public- for the same reasons. Innocent but afraid that a young Pakistani would become suspect number one because this is what people 'expect'.

@TriciaF

I read about this. He's being tried under France's constitutional laws about discrimination. In France, it's illegal even to recognise that people are different, which is the opposite of the situation in the UK. For years France hasn't even attempted to have multi-cultural policies, because it doesn't recognise that people are different. It's a different way of thinking, which is now coming under pressure.

I agree this is not the thread but I will say Charles de Mendenez was sitting down in the train when they grabbed him, pushed him to the floor and shot him in the head .

Seven times in the head and three in the shoulder and three shots missed.

Yes Petra, no running