Wheelchairs versus buggies court ruling

The only real problem is if the child in the buggy is disabled in which case it may not be possible for the mother to hold them easily.

Surely this is the problem there is going to be so many ifs and buts.

It should be simple: a disabled space is for the disabled. No one else has any right to use it when a disabled person needs it. Why should anyone think they have any right to occupy it? This is so reminiscent of drivers who park in disabled spaces with no thought but for their selfish selves.

dot upthread has a point, I think. Disabled spaces are empty most of the time, as are disabled toilets, and maybe even disabled car parking spaces. It seems daft to me to provide spaces which are unused most of the time and inaccessible to others during that time.

So what's the answer? I'd like to see better-adapted buses with flexible seating space. I don't think more legislation's the answer.

More space with folding seats is the answer. It also depends as well where the upright posts are in a bus for the wheelchair/pushchair users to manoeuvre round. As to buggies being 'heavy' the same can be said for wheelchairs - you can get fold up ones and some users are able to walk short distances and just need the wheels for longer ones. Reasonable behaviour on both sides is needed.

I am with the disabled passenger on this. It has always been possible to take a child and buggy on a bus, although it was inconvenient in the past having to fold it up and disturb a sleeping child. The disabled fought long and hard and against prejudices to establish the right to this space. The bus driver should have to point out to a buggy user as they board that they can only occupy it if it is not required by a disabled passenger. People with children usually ask if there is space for them IMO. As several other posters have pointed out, it all comes down to considering the greater needs of the other person before your own.

People HAVE the choice to be a parent or not to be a parent
Medical science has given them this choice.

Disabled people are disabled and not from choice and if the child is disabled he/she too should have priority.

Unfortunately it is not just on public transport you find this 'I am a mother with a baby/small child attitude'.

DD had one of those enormous pushchairs for DGS but she also had a lightweight folding one for using on public transport or at markets, fairs etc.
I wish some people pushing the big puschairs would just look where they are going, I use a cane and have had to step with some difficulty into the road when they do not give way.

I have every sympathy with both wheelchair and pushchair users but would ask everyone to remember the struggle and pain a disabled person may face getting ready to even sit in their wheelchair. Getting washed and dressed is usually a mammoth task before they can even contemplate getting into their chair and leaving home. The day that you see them trying to get on a bus may be the only day that week/month that they have been able/well/pain free enough to get out. To then face the rejection of not be being able to board a bus would be a huge dent to their well being and self esteem. I am taking sides just asking everyone to think about others and above all be kind and respectful.

Should read Not taking sides

I feel sorry for the bus drivers, as they are in an awkward spot now. When my kids were small and I had to use buses I always had to fold up pushchair and hold baby/toddler, along with my three other little ones, it was a real struggle. These days the buggies are huge and some seem difficult to collapse so I can see the problems Mum's have, but they should give up the space if a wheelchair needs it.

It's a difficult one what about people with twins or if there were two prams already on I don't think driver should be responsible . If I had got on bus with a buggy and paid full fare I would not be happy to be asked to get off if I couldn't fold buggy some buses around here are hrly

There are only 14 months between my two children, so I have every sympathy for mothers of twins (and god forbid, triplets!) and I struggled to hold onto a baby, a toddler and to fold up the pushchair.

It was normally a kind older person who took pity on me and helped us onto the bus. Other passengers should be prepared to help out.

I have conflicting views on this. Wheelchair users should be able to use the bus, but as the grandmother of young twins I know the difficulties pushchair users can face. My SiL is the primary care-giver and uses the bus. They have a fore and aft buggy which is easier on pavements and on the bus, but doesn't fold, or at least not easily. It did ,however, cost a lot of money and would be beyond the reach of some. Getting 2 very small children out safely and folding the buggy would be well nigh impossible. I don't have any solutions but hope that common sense and kindness will prevail.

A difficult one - every sympathy for the disabled also have a lot of sympathy for the Mums. I remember being very pleased for Mums when our bus local company no longer insisted they woke sleeping babies and collapsed buggies. I could barely manage the buggy, baby, toddler and shopping when I was a traveling Mum. There are not enough seats, adaptable spaces for any group except outside rush hour. In rush hour we also get bicycles on the bus going to the point that the council have laid a cycle path to the station - where they will then lump them on the packed train too. More and more pressure for less and less space on transport. As has already been said adaptable seating/space is the way forward. The group I feel for most is the staff - the driver did not sign up to be Solomon. He can ask but he can't insist - what's he to do then - ours don't ask anything you can smoke, drink, swear and fight on our buses and the driver will just say he has to quite rightly concentrate on the road he can't be dealing with passenger issues en route. So this case has done nothing except confirm the original Mum should have been asked to vacate the space - as she was, the outcomes may not now be any different. I dispare of Society today generally, we all want to legislate as to how people can and should live as we can't trust people to do the right unselfish thing. On our local TV last night after this judgement there was a man arguing very vehmently that he would not take a space for his wheelchair at the expense of a mother and child.... he was after all a man!! You can't please all the people all the time!!

I heard that the mother in question had a sleeping baby and a pram with shopping underneath. Now, having bought a ticket, was she expected to get off the bus as she understandably didn't want to wake her baby and could hardly have folded a pram with shopping underneath? I have no time at all for the breed of mother who seems to think that she has become the most important and entitled person in any situation because she has a baby, but this particular case has left me with mixed feelings. There were demonstrators in wheelchairs outside the court saying they should have access to busses - well, they do have, and much more than a few years ago. This question seemed to be entirely about whether a disabled person should be able to insist upon getting on the bus regardless of how many passengers and how they were seated. I feel strongly that every help should be given to the disabled, whose lives are hard enough anyway, but are we talking access, or priority here? Pity the poor driver!

On one occasion when I was desperate for the loo and standing at the front of a queue in a store, I couldn't wait a second longer and went into the disabled toilet. A woman then berated me as it was 'for the disabled only' - before I could defend myself another woman said that it was for disabled access, not exclusively, and there was nobody disabled wanting it right then, and how did she know that I hadn't got a problem? I left at this point as they were going at it hammer and tongs!

People with buggies are fit to walk the disabled are not ! I have been on city buses with 3 buggies. Poor driver if he should be asked to help anyone.

Maybe if this ruling had been handed down 5 years ago I could have carried on working.

I drove to the nearest underground station - about 25 mins away and IF the lift was working went down to the platform and got a train ( and a seat) . In those days I could manage the stairs at the other end because on my line there are only 3 or maybe 4 accessible stations.

Once I couldn't manage the stairs I might have tried to carry on by getting an over ground train and then getting a bus.... but I would have had to take my scooter.

The first day I tried - they forgot to get the ramp to get me on the train at my station so the train went without me

The second time , the lift was out of order at the mainline station so I couldn't get down to street level.

The third and fourth times I waited for a bus in the rush hour that could take me , 2 1/2 hours later I went home in tears.

I don't know whether this ruling is the way forward or if the whole design of buses needs to be looked at .

What I do know , is I need/demand the same access to public transport as anyone else. I don't want to force others off the bus .

Not my personal view, but playing devil's advocate - why should one fare paying passenger be required to leave the bus to make way for another fare paying passenger? Would a wheelchair user leave the bus to allow another passenger to travel? Is a user of a "normal" wheelchair, i.e. one who can propel themselves along, in greater or lesser need than an electronically propelled wheelchair/

If disabled people are saying they want to be treated equally then why should special allowances be made for them at the expense of another passenger. What is the difference between a pushchair using passenger and a wheelchair using passenger having to wait for the next bus?

(And actually, I don't know the full facts of the case, so there may indeed be a very good reason in this case.)

"People with buggies are fit to walk"

How do you know? A lot of establishments are now putting up signs on disabled toilets saying (paraphrased) not all disabilities are visible - i.e. not only wheelchair users are disabled.

Hurdy - the issue is about being in a wheelchair, not having invisible disabilities or having mobility problems. And as for your previous post, I wouldn't know where to start so I won't.

Devil's Advocate from me too -
Perhaps buses should be designed with a space for wheelchairs, and one for buggies (folded if possible.)
If your space is full, wait for the next bus.
But seriously, if the essence of the argument is who has the greatest need - we're never going to work that one out, all individual cases are different. The poor driver can't be judge and jury, he has to concentrate on his driving.

Rosina the reason there are SOME wheelchair accessible buses is because they were fought for. Many, many buses are inaccessible for wheelchairs - but guess what, mothers with foldable buggies can access them. The question is NOT about people with disabilities ( and not 'the disabled' if you don't mind) insisting on getting on a bus regardless, it's about the fact that there are wheelchair spaces for um let me think wheelchairs to which they have priority.

Tricia - maybe any entitled parents and their supporters can start a campaign for this ( like people with disabilities had to for accessible buses). And of course we can have basic principles about how we judge priorities - a good start is that only foldable buggies are allowed on buses - as used to be the case for decades.

I don't think anyone would have a problem waiting for the next bus Tricia , we've all done it , if the bus is full. But where is the line ? One bus, three buses , ten buses ? In the rush hour , in London ten is not as ridiculous as it might sound.

I used to leave home at 05:30 to be at my desk for 07:30 even though I didn't have to start until 9am simply to get a seat on my transport of choice - a journey of only 21 miles.

You'd think there would not be many buggies about at that time but there are lots of mums heading to nursery before work.

I don't think the ideal solution is for anyone to have to get off the bus Hurdy but I do believe if the buggy can be folded and by doing that both can travel then it's a no brainier.