Article 50

One day without us today.

action.hopenothate.org.uk/page/m/4c1883c/618bba6a/63a6decf/167ee080/677075664/VEsF/

Not sure I really want to advertise it, but you'd find it by Googling anyway. It's called Westmonster.

'Extremist' is the wrong word dj, but I'm afraid Corbyn doesn't appeal to the majority of potential Labour voters. I don't think he's particularly extremist either (see my previous posts) - he's certainly not a Communist, but he chooses issues which most people don't really see as important and flip flops about issues which do matter. It doesn't help that the MSM were against him from the start and I gave him a chance, but I honestly think that he's not up to the role.

Yes sorry, not reading carefully enough. slaps own wrist.
Scary though the thing about Banks and his newspaper.

Oh, thanks, gracesgran, but daphne says I am in an extremist niche now. Having read Corbyn's latest speech, there is nothing extremist about it. If there is, I'd like it pointed out to me, please.
Jess, I meant that UKIP are not divided on Brexit. Haven't heard of any of them wanting to stay in Europe. Which is jesting, of course, considering their name.

Which newspaper dd please?

I agree with JessM. UKIP is most certainly fragmented. Carswell (their only MP) is a maverick and out on his own. Farage and Banks can't stand him. They also hate Suzanne Evans. There are even rumours that Farage and Nuttall have fallen out. It wouldn't be surprising if Banks stops funding UKIP, if Nuttall loses Stoke. He was muttering about starting a new party at the end of last year and he's already set up a Breitbart-style newspaper. He has a huge database of supporters.

Jen, I didn't say anything derogatory about you nor did I suggest you thought the political right were OK. Please read what I wrote again. I think you may have misunderstood my post. I wasn't commenting about you personally in anyway although I did challenge the idea that those who do not feel extreme, who I had termed the pragmatic voter, didn't vote.

The whole point of what I had written (but obviously not well enough ) was to say that those who are absolutely convinced about staying in to the degree they believe their views are the only truth are only a proportion of those voting remain and those who are absolutely convinced about coming out to the degree they believe their views are the only truth are only a proportion of those voting leave. In the middle and on both sides of voting are some who are more ready to deal with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations, i.e., pragmatic.

My post saying this was apropos of nothing that had come before except an overall sense that not only on here but also on other forums and in the press those two extremes are hogging the limelight and little is heard from the voter who was unconvinced either was the best way and voted for the least worst.

UKIP not fragmented Durhamj? Or was it a jest.
Last I heard the UKIP contingent had fallen out in the Welsh Assembly with the horrible Hamilton appointed as leader in the house and Nathan Gill still leader of the party in Wales... but now he's removed himself from the UKIP group in the Assembly but still a member of the UKIP group in the EU parliament, where he also has a seat.
And one of the UKIP AMs in trouble this week for trying to get a job advert changed to make it more favourable to her brother.

Yes, all parties are fragmented, but the reality is that the way votes are being cast, the Labour Party is doomed. The Conservatives are experts at covering over the cracks and people perceive them as more competent. It doesn't matter whether they are in reality, because it's people's perception which matters. Corbyn's policies appeal to a niche group, which is perceived as extreme, and he doesn't have the political skill to expand that appeal.

Overall, the LDs are doing well. I know about the two LD losses to Independents, because they're in my council area (Uttlesford). It's been a long story and brewing for a while and is to do with planning permission for building thousands of new houses. The loss was expected. Unfortunately, the two sitting councillors resigned suddenly and the LDs didn't have the time or resources to mount a successful campaign. The Independents (who aren't really independent) have loads of money and influence behind them, but they call themselves centrist too. They've taken over from the LDs in this council. I don't even think there is a local Labour Party.

Did you watch Liz Truss on Marr today?
She said that article 50 was irrevocable after May had presented it to the EU. The man who wrote it said it isn't true.
Now who do we believe?

As we know, the Labour Party is itself fragmented with dividing lines between Leave and Remain (the main issue being immigration) and age.

All parties have the same dividing lines, apart from UKIP.

You forgot to say that Labour held two seats, daphne, and that the Libdems lost two to independents. The Tory party lost one to an independent as well.

And while our parliamnet was debating Brexit, this was happening in a committee room nearby.

www.opendemocracy.net/uk/amy-hall/liam-fox-doesn-t-want-you-to-know-about-eucanada-trade-deal

If you have another hour or so, this publication from the Social Market Foundation is worth reading (you'll have to click on the box in the top right hand corner for the full publication).

www.smf.co.uk/publications/dead-centre-redefining-the-centre-of-british-politics/

What it's saying is that political values can no longer be described in terms of left and right only.

It also claims that most people describe their values as somewhere in the centre.

However, these values aren't represented by the current state of political parties.

It claims that almost half of people are happy to be represented by the Conservatives or UKIP, especially as some centrists see Theresa May as a centrist politician. If UKIP continues to attract former Conservative voters, some in the centre will be put off. However, if UKIP succeeds in attracting former Labour voters, the centrists are more likely to stick with the Conservatives, because they don't like extremists.

The problem with politics to the left of centre is that it's fragmented. In England, the three main parties representing left of centre politics are Labour, the LibDems and the Greens. As we know, the Labour Party is itself fragmented with dividing lines between Leave and Remain (the main issue being immigration) and age. Younger members are less likely to be bothered about immigration and nationalism.

Unless left of centre parties can come to some kind of agreement, they're unlikely to win a majority, especially in a FPTP system. They're also highly unlikely to pull some of the 'centrists' away from the Conservatives if these people view the 'left' as extreme.

Frankly, the current system isn't representing the consensus, which is why I think there will be some kind of realignment in the future. It might have already started. The LDs are generally doing well in local elections and the Greens won a council seat from UKIP in the Forest of Dean. However, it's going to be a long road.

Just been watching the Clegg link that daphne put on.
The consensus there seemed to be that the more extreme people get, the more the centre is pulled away from the centre, in either direction, so we end up without a centre politics.

I have been called a trot, a communist, all sorts of names because I put my views on here. I don't think I am. I am quite moderate among people whose views I know personally.
No way do I think that extreme right wingers are politically okay. Where do you get that idea from?
As it was only a choice of two, it's impossible to know how many who voted to leave or remain were more extreme than those who give their views on here.
After all, there's only one person on GN who says she votes UKIP, but there must be more, by the law of averages. Not a single person admits to being communist.

I do understand the referendum was both binary and very badly set up to cope with that fact Jen, but that was a vote on one day. We are now moving into what actually happens and the whole population really doesn't comprise people who hold extreme views even if the smaller number who do in each direction currently shout the loudest.

You may think they didn't vote - perhaps you feel they have shown their political passivity by not being extreme in one way or the other - but that is really quite insulting to what may - who knows - but may be the real majority, particularly now people have seen just how complex it all is and how there really are plusses and minuses to whatever decisions we take.

Choosing not to shout from street corners (or forums) does not mean you don't have a view and we have seen what ignoring mainstream views can do. You seem to be saying that either extreme shows people to be Politically 'OK' but the rest cannot analyse what they think and then vote in a way they feel is the best they can while, quite possibly, holding their noses.

I am quite convinced many did just that and voted for, in their opinion, the least worst. The idea that all felt extreme in one direction or the other or didn't have an opinion is quite ridiculous and the extremes are getting far to much say currently - in my opinion. It is time we had some proper journalism to look at this in greater depth.

Therefore no assurance, niggly. Is Mrs May a friend of yours, that you know what she thinks? There would be no betrayal of UK citizens working in the EU. They wouldn't be left to the vagaries and goodwill of the EU at a later date.
The orchestra that I mentioned consists of UK players as well as EU players. They are worried that they will not be allowed to travel in mainland Europe after Brexit, so have decided to move en masse to Antwerp. That includes the UK players, who feel it will be better for them to be situated on mainland Europe from now on. The European Youth Orchestra is thinking of doing the same. One orchestra is based in Oxford, the other in London. The south will be the losers in this cultural battle.
These UK citizens don't seem to be worried about moving to the EU, because they know that the EU welcomes UK citizens, unlike the opposite.

Gracesgran, unfortunately there wasn't a pragmatic third. The referendum was binary, one of May's favourite words. Mayb the pragmatic third were those who did not vote.

Mrs May would gladly give this assurance, if she could get a reciprocal agreement from the EU which they have made clear she can't. Surely this would be a betrayal of British citizens living/working in Europe If she were to agree to this guarantee without at the same time securing the same for our own countrymen? Or are you saying that their future unimportant and can be left to the vagaries and goodwill(?!!) of the EU at a later date?!! Bit naive and tenuous I'd have thought!

It is interesting to read this thread but more and more I don't think I can add anything to a discussion which is so often between two extremes.

I am sure that a large number, possibly even a majority, voted for the least worst in their view. Again, I would guess (no stats been gathered as far as I can see) a large tranche would want the best workable solution rather than an extreme one for the sake of a political stance. Even if this means the country is divided a third, a third, a third with two thirds wanting opposite extremes and one third being purely pragmatic each of those views should be taken into account as the pragmatic third, more of whom seem to have sided with leave on the day, will be the ones who are prepared to adjust to the needs as we understand what will actually work.

Equally view of the pragmatic group may change if the EU changes and that is quite possible over the next few years and at least deserves consideration. I would actually be surprised if the pragmatics are not nearer to 80% with 10% per cent on each side who believe their views are undeniably true yet it appears that these, be they 10% or thirty per cent are fighting it out and over-riding any more nuanced views both here and in the wider media.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/18/baroque-orchestra-eu-britain-brexit-immigration-free-movement

An orchestra is moving to Antwerp because free movement of people is not guaranteed. I wonder how many MPs will go to their final concert in London on 19th May.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/18/eu-citizens-right-to-stay-britain-chaos

This is Theresa May's fault. She could easily gain a lot of goodwill in the EU by giving them the right to stay now.

Public transport in London is excellent - children up to 16 mostly travel free; over 60s totally travel free including tube, bus and many overground services.

Therefore it's more than reasonable to have a pay a premium for travelling by private car in Central London.

I've just had my DGS(11) here for half-term and we've been out and about all over the place and haven't paid a penny for transport.

I don't know about the pollution but the air in the car was blue.