Article 50

True daph but I also think the problem is that "the people" do not have faith in the politicians to improve their lot either, which is why we are getting such extreme results. The extreme are promising deliverance from the results of the non-action of these politicians.

Yorkshiregel Those incidents could have been catalysts to further action (some were), which is why we have diplomats and Foreign Offices to try and calm things down.

The point is that catalysts happen in a context of distrust and hatred. Incidents between two powers with friendly relations are usually treated as minor incidents, people apologise and life moves on.

At the moment, it seems that we have some major forces at work (Putin, IS, 'anti-elite', nationalism, etc) heading for collision courses. Sorry, but I really don't trust the 'people' to sort things out. If you studied the Reign of Terror after the Revolution at school or even witnessed a playground brawl before intervention, you'll know what I mean.

A 'line in the sand' was also drawn in the Middle East; India and in America by Colonel Travis at the battle of Alamo and more recently by President Bush in the Gulf War. Look at what that caused.

I think one of the characteristics that drove this vote and lurch to the right is one of anger.

It is argued that many feel dismayed by the way they have been ignored. They have identified politicians as the culprits, but I do wonder whether the economic capitalist system, brings with it an inevitability which the politicians are powerless to change and can only mitigate against.

I wonder what the consequences will be after Britain allowed the Russian fleet to sail down the English channel on their way to Syria to bomb the opponents of the Government there? You could say we were complicit doing that.

I do not agree with Trump on some of his policies especially about Mexicans and the ban on immigration. However he has been elected by the American people so they have almost the same situation we have here. The people have spoken and should be respected.

If you want examples of things that led to worse things think of 'the line in the sand' which Western governments made when dividing up Europe. Or the policies of the Cyprus government before the Turks were forced in to action over the discrimination of the Turkish Cypriots by the pro-Greek government. Think of what is happening now between Israel and Palestine and the building in no-man's land that has been allowed. Just about to blow up again by the looks of things. Think of what happened when the USA dropped chemical bombs over Vietnam in the Vietnam war. The country is still suffering from that decades later. The USA government also distributed drugs to the troops to help them face the horrible things that went on, and now they have a massive drugs problem in America. Our own British government gave out free cigarettes to our troops for the same reason and millions got hooked on them. It has taken 70 years to wean people off them. The list is endless.

Some people did ask why - and still do. Trump, Putin and Le Pen each has his/her own obvious agenda, but still the bells don't toll loud enough.

I do think future historians will look back on this time with horror. We may be an island but we should not be so insular. Anyone who looked around the world last June and saw that the only foreign leaders supporting brexit were Trump, Putin and Marine le Pen, should have asked why. Alarm bells should have rung.

I found the article interesting. People look back at history and it all seems so obvious why things happened. However, at the time, people didn't realise what was happening, eg. The English Civil War, the French Reign of Terror, Nazi Germany, the Middle East Crisis. However, some people were aware what was happening and did try to warn others, but they were dismissed as doom-mongerers.

The catalyst for WW1 happened in Sarajevo, but it wouldn't have led to war, if the conditions hadn't been right. It might not be possible to stop the catalysts, but the conditions can be controlled. I remember watching an interview with Paddy Ashdown (about 2010), when he said that Ukraine was likely to be the touch paper for trouble in Europe. The other people in the discussion almost laughed at him, but I think he was right.

I really hope future historians don't look back at our era and discuss the reasons why some (yet unknown) catastrophe happened.

Yes it was DD I tried for ages to do a link and failed completely.

Trump's win and Brexit weren't random events. They were part of a trend.

The historian Ian Kershaw wrote,

“The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference.”

We can, at the very least, refuse to be indifferent.

Was it this article Welshwife?

www.huffingtonpost.com/tobias-stone/history-tells-us-what-will-brexit-trump_b_11179774.html

I agree with it.

I support Britain Yorkshiregel! For what it's worth, I love this country and I" know that longterm we can do well outside the EU. I'm afraid that view does make me rather unpopular, what with that and being a Tory! No hope really!!

The regulation and monitoring of the atomic industry is just one small (but important) role which is organised at an EU level. This means that countries are not solely in charge of monitoring their own atomic power stations.

Of course, but we have no control over random events. Hindsight for anything would be a great thing.

Personally once the whole thing is over I think immigration and 'control' will be nothing to the problems which will gradually come to the fore. There will also need to be a lot of education about the laws which the Govt wish to repeal and if they are re-elected at the next GE will have the mandate to do.
I read an interesting piece in the Huffington Post today written by a historian about how seemingly insignificant things become the trigger for much bigger events. One of the starting points he used with the shooting of Ferdinand in Sarejevo ultimately being the cause of WW1. He was putting the case how the three separate events of Trump Brexit and Putin being in power can gradually trigger events.

Yes, counselling or even better ,hypnotherapy may be needed ' look into my eyes, don't look over there, look at me, you are feeling sleepy, now.....repeat after me
the referendum is over and again please, and again, right when I count to three and snap my fingers you will wake up!

Just to be clear....as the politicians say. No-one is planning to send all immigrants back to where they came from. No-one is trying to stop immigration to Britain altogether. What we are looking for is a controlled way of taking in only those who offer their skills to this country, not a stampede of all those who just want to live off the benefits this country provides. Free medical care being one. Anyone read about the Nigerian woman who was turned away from America so jumped on an airplane to Britain and promptly gave birth to quadtruplets? That has cost the NHS £50,000! How many nurses would that have helped to train?

I wish people would just start supporting Britain! The Referendum is OVER. The vote was to come OUT of the EU (thank goodness) and now we should just accept it and start working together to make this country well again. We need to stop all the bickering and feet stamping and start being positive for our country's future.

Those who cannot or will not accept the decision should up-sticks and move elsewhere. There is still time, you have two years to plan and pack before the border is secured again.

It's good that you're extremely relaxed about the bill whitewave, you did come across as being anything but recently! Let's hope those fair and cautious MPs feel the same way...

'Hard right argument here on GN'? Must have missed that...

There is no hard right arguement here on GN to end immigration.

I am feeling extremely relaxed about the bill.

The important stuff is to come and what Brexit Britain will look like will be debated in Parliament over the next 2 years and probably beyond.

I am reasonably confident that the moderates will far outweigh and out vote the extremists in Parliament - so we won't have a Trump style attitude to things like, continuous trade with the EU, and immigration. There will be adjustments to both, but not to the extent that it will effect our economy nor societal needs. No point in shooting ourselves in the foot!!
Britain will continue to be the tolerant, mature and open society we have all grown up with.
To ensure that there is a clear majority in both the Commons and the Lords.

I think that the hard right argument witnessed here on GN which is calling for and end to immigration and a call to reject refugees is we must remember very much in the minority in the country. And bears no relationship to the majority of people's attitude.

Yes many are calling for a restriction on immigration, and this will happen, yes people are concerned that their living standards do not fall, and I am clear that this is primarily in the minds of MPs .

So we can ignore those whose divisive rhetoric threatens the stability of our country, and be content that good moderate debate we Daily witness in Parliament will give us what we all want.

Glamorousgray

Well said. The Bremainers would be more likely to win some concessions if they tried to be constructive not confrontational.

May was hardly a hard core Brexiter but she must be increasingly peed off with Bremoaners doing everything they can to sabotage her and make her life difficult, including the latest Trump nonsense.

I presume some people on here have never signed a government petition, and don't know that you can't sign it twice. If you forget and try again it reminds you that you have already done it.

You can with a new name and email address. I'd have thought a campaigner such as yourself would be aware of that, even if your own moral principles restrain you from such corruption.

I don't think people are wishing or hoping it goes wrong Glamourousgray, what would the point be in that? I think what many want is a chance for it to go right. Moving on is not going to happen - it never does. The referendum went in one particular way on one particular day and the status quo moved from us being in the EU to us being in a position where a referendum had advised the government to come out. And then the next day came as it always, always does.