Article 50

I think it probably is DD - it was in the Slate - not a pub. I had heard of before but the way it was written I thought it sounded right.

He might be retired now, but Richard Evans used to be a professor at Cambridge. He was no ivory tower academic, but used to do lectures open to the public. He's also written numerous books about Hitler and his rise to power. He and another historian, Ian Kershaw, destroyed the myth that Germans were all evil supporters of Nazism, which was the prevalent view immediately after WW2. By laborious study of original sources and interviews, they showed that Germans were just ordinary people with normal concerns about their country, their lives, their future, etc. - just like people today.

Just started his "coming of the third reich"! Page 6 - extremely readable

Getting back to article 50..... I think the Lords will not try to hold things up now ( I did think so up to now) they have seen that the two votes in the House Of Commons have passed it overwhelmingly.So, maybe things will be on track for the end of next month as the government wants.

I wouldn't be too sure of that, roses. The Lords are far more independent of 'party' (even though most of them belong to one party or another) and don't have a whip. They will not try to block A50 but they may well ask for amendments to the A50 Bill before they pass it. And as they're not scared of 'the will of the people' they won't cave in as easily as MPs did.

I hope they back the amendment on EU citizens, just to show they have some power, and on workers rights.

No, am not sure about it at all, ( the Lords) but think that they will take the intent of the HOC into consideration.They may not be scared of the will of the people but they would be damn arrogant to ride roughshod over it.

They don't have to ride roughshod over the will of 52% of those who voted. Changing a couple of things that the Tories want to change anyway would show that the Tory government is not riding roughshod over 48% of those who voted.
It has now been said that many people would have voted differently if they knew then what they know now.
The leaders of the Brexit campaign have ignored the 48%. Hopefully the Lords will not.

It may have been 'said. It's also possible more would vote to leave now rather than to remain - I've heard that said too.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/13/uk-labour-shortages-brexit-as-eu-worker-numbers-fall

Starting already. A shortage of EU workers.

I saw that Jen I had seen on other sites that a number of EU nationals did not return to UK after trips home for Christmas.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/13/uk-treatment-of-eu-nationals-could-lead-to-backlash-against-britons-living-in-the-eu

This is worrying as well, Welshwife. May really needs to sort it now.

Yes - I saw that too. - trying to look hard is not doing Theresa May or UK any favours. She is souring the atmosphere before any talks begin and making things difficult for several millions of people.
Everyone can see that it is unlikely the UK will end up in a better position when all is done and dusted than the one it had before - except for people like Dyson who simply wish to expand their sales in places like China.

Surely the problem is that the only options which seem to be on offer by the EU are a complete break or a requirement to comply with all 4 EU pillars, keep paying in and (I think) retain some EU law and some subservience to the ECJ. Those options appear to be hard Brexit or pretty much no Brexit. I would much prefer the latter, but I have to say I can't square that in any way whatsoever with the referendum result. I haven't heard of anything that suggests the EU will compromise and agree to something which could provide some comfort to the remainders. Did I miss something?

We don't know yet. Until May invokes article 50 we can't start negotiating.
May CAN decide unilaterally to do what she said and allow EU migrants to stay. That will give her some brownie points among the other EU leaders.

I think initially there could have been more flexibility but TM has made it quite clear that she will not accept the 4 freedoms - if she continues with that line for all trade deals the UK will end up bartering within the UK or perhaps some trade with USA as Australia and India have both said they want free movement of people or more visas into UK before any trade and I believe other countries too.

However all this may well be academic as it is the other 27 countries which will decide the conditions under which the UK will leave and the amount they need to pay for salaries and pensions etc.

You keep saying that, but she's not looking for 'brownie points' she's going for the best deal for the UK.

What's the best deal for the UK, then?

I leave that up to the politicians to work out. I doubt T. May reads Gransnet.

If she ploughs ahead with her hard brexit the best deal she could ever get will be infinareky worse than the deal we already have.

Infinitely worse

Depressing ain't it. So many aspects of UK life set to suffer. I am going to focus on local poltics for a while.

We don't know what deal we will get yet, until negotiations start and then it will take ages.We all know this, so speculation is futile ( as Daleks might say!)We also know that T May wanted to guarantee the future of Brits abroad and EU workers living here but the EU (Germany) would not agree until after article 50 is triggered.

The fact of TM not guaranteeing the EU citizens their rights to stay has by the looks of it caused some of them to go back to EU early or not return to UK after visiting their home country.

It's immoral, Welshwife.
Roses, have you not bothered reading the articles? Do you just sit in a bubble?
UK citizens in the EU are already having a hard time, as are EU citizens in the UK. Do you really want it to continue?
Why should May not be the first to offer an olive branch?
Do you not have any feelings for people caught up in this?
They are not just waiting and seeing.