Article 50

I don't think saak has been anywhere near the centre London for many years. Anyone who talks of 'driving from one end of London to the other' can't have any concept of the reality.Would it be OK saak for Mayor Khan to allow the poisoning of the London population and do nothing? Because it will be the ordinary people who will suffer the most, they are the ones pushing children in buggies, walking the pavements and riding bikes, as the rich sweep by in their limos.

“It’s staggering that we live in a city where the air is so toxic that many of our children are growing up with lung problems,” Khan said. “The T-Charge is a vital step in tackling the dirtiest diesels.

I agree; however, this statement is also partially true and it was Gordon Brown who encouraged people to change to diesel cars, many of which date from then:
I remember the government making people buy diesel cars
I say partially because for making read give financial incentive to

I do agree that charging £10 per day for older cars which probably belong to poorer people is a rather stupid idea. Better, more affordable public transport is the answer - in fact free park and rides on the outskirts would be worth considering.

Nobody in their right minds takes their car into the congestion zone let alone Central London if they can help it anyway!
No, they don't!

Unless, of course, they get lost and end up driving down 'Buses Only' Oxford Street in the rush hour (my fault, of course, for my poor navigational skills).

saak at least you are up front about being a UKIP supporter.
Khan is right to be concerned about the health of Londoners - particularly young Londoners. 10,000 premature deaths caused by air pollution every year and hundreds of schools where children breathe filthy air.
Londoners are very fortunate in many ways. I believe that retired Londoners have free travel on public transport for instance. Everyone needs to do their bit about air pollution and should try not to indulge in driving or there will be need for more punitive measures. So use your fantastic public transport and stop whingeing!

Small children and those babies/children in pushchairs are most vulnerable as they are just at exhaust level.

Did you have to pay more than £10 for that, Jalima?

Nobody makes anybody buy a car. They might have persuaded people to buy a diesel car because the information at the time was that diesel was safer than petrol.

To be fair, when diesel cars were being encouraged, the knowledge at that time was that it was a good thing - was it to do with lower carbon emissions? Of course there were financial incentives - that's a way of trying to change behaviour. Do you remember the car scrapage scheme which gave an incentive to trade in cars over a certain age?

X posts dj

It was a few years ago and we never seemed to get a bill - I have just checked and it does not apply at the weekend (which seemed to be a 'rush hour' to those of us who live in the sticks).
Because it took so long to get around the North Circular to visit DD, DH said he wanted me to guide him a different way home, he wasn't going on the North Circular ever again.

I don't know about the pollution but the air in the car was blue.

Public transport in London is excellent - children up to 16 mostly travel free; over 60s totally travel free including tube, bus and many overground services.

Therefore it's more than reasonable to have a pay a premium for travelling by private car in Central London.

I've just had my DGS(11) here for half-term and we've been out and about all over the place and haven't paid a penny for transport.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/18/eu-citizens-right-to-stay-britain-chaos

This is Theresa May's fault. She could easily gain a lot of goodwill in the EU by giving them the right to stay now.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/18/baroque-orchestra-eu-britain-brexit-immigration-free-movement

An orchestra is moving to Antwerp because free movement of people is not guaranteed. I wonder how many MPs will go to their final concert in London on 19th May.

It is interesting to read this thread but more and more I don't think I can add anything to a discussion which is so often between two extremes.

I am sure that a large number, possibly even a majority, voted for the least worst in their view. Again, I would guess (no stats been gathered as far as I can see) a large tranche would want the best workable solution rather than an extreme one for the sake of a political stance. Even if this means the country is divided a third, a third, a third with two thirds wanting opposite extremes and one third being purely pragmatic each of those views should be taken into account as the pragmatic third, more of whom seem to have sided with leave on the day, will be the ones who are prepared to adjust to the needs as we understand what will actually work.

Equally view of the pragmatic group may change if the EU changes and that is quite possible over the next few years and at least deserves consideration. I would actually be surprised if the pragmatics are not nearer to 80% with 10% per cent on each side who believe their views are undeniably true yet it appears that these, be they 10% or thirty per cent are fighting it out and over-riding any more nuanced views both here and in the wider media.

Mrs May would gladly give this assurance, if she could get a reciprocal agreement from the EU which they have made clear she can't. Surely this would be a betrayal of British citizens living/working in Europe If she were to agree to this guarantee without at the same time securing the same for our own countrymen? Or are you saying that their future unimportant and can be left to the vagaries and goodwill(?!!) of the EU at a later date?!! Bit naive and tenuous I'd have thought!

Therefore no assurance, niggly. Is Mrs May a friend of yours, that you know what she thinks? There would be no betrayal of UK citizens working in the EU. They wouldn't be left to the vagaries and goodwill of the EU at a later date.
The orchestra that I mentioned consists of UK players as well as EU players. They are worried that they will not be allowed to travel in mainland Europe after Brexit, so have decided to move en masse to Antwerp. That includes the UK players, who feel it will be better for them to be situated on mainland Europe from now on. The European Youth Orchestra is thinking of doing the same. One orchestra is based in Oxford, the other in London. The south will be the losers in this cultural battle.
These UK citizens don't seem to be worried about moving to the EU, because they know that the EU welcomes UK citizens, unlike the opposite.

Gracesgran, unfortunately there wasn't a pragmatic third. The referendum was binary, one of May's favourite words. Mayb the pragmatic third were those who did not vote.

I do understand the referendum was both binary and very badly set up to cope with that fact Jen, but that was a vote on one day. We are now moving into what actually happens and the whole population really doesn't comprise people who hold extreme views even if the smaller number who do in each direction currently shout the loudest.

You may think they didn't vote - perhaps you feel they have shown their political passivity by not being extreme in one way or the other - but that is really quite insulting to what may - who knows - but may be the real majority, particularly now people have seen just how complex it all is and how there really are plusses and minuses to whatever decisions we take.

Choosing not to shout from street corners (or forums) does not mean you don't have a view and we have seen what ignoring mainstream views can do. You seem to be saying that either extreme shows people to be Politically 'OK' but the rest cannot analyse what they think and then vote in a way they feel is the best they can while, quite possibly, holding their noses.

I am quite convinced many did just that and voted for, in their opinion, the least worst. The idea that all felt extreme in one direction or the other or didn't have an opinion is quite ridiculous and the extremes are getting far to much say currently - in my opinion. It is time we had some proper journalism to look at this in greater depth.

Just been watching the Clegg link that daphne put on.
The consensus there seemed to be that the more extreme people get, the more the centre is pulled away from the centre, in either direction, so we end up without a centre politics.

I have been called a trot, a communist, all sorts of names because I put my views on here. I don't think I am. I am quite moderate among people whose views I know personally.
No way do I think that extreme right wingers are politically okay. Where do you get that idea from?
As it was only a choice of two, it's impossible to know how many who voted to leave or remain were more extreme than those who give their views on here.
After all, there's only one person on GN who says she votes UKIP, but there must be more, by the law of averages. Not a single person admits to being communist.

If you have another hour or so, this publication from the Social Market Foundation is worth reading (you'll have to click on the box in the top right hand corner for the full publication).

www.smf.co.uk/publications/dead-centre-redefining-the-centre-of-british-politics/

What it's saying is that political values can no longer be described in terms of left and right only.

It also claims that most people describe their values as somewhere in the centre.

However, these values aren't represented by the current state of political parties.

It claims that almost half of people are happy to be represented by the Conservatives or UKIP, especially as some centrists see Theresa May as a centrist politician. If UKIP continues to attract former Conservative voters, some in the centre will be put off. However, if UKIP succeeds in attracting former Labour voters, the centrists are more likely to stick with the Conservatives, because they don't like extremists.

The problem with politics to the left of centre is that it's fragmented. In England, the three main parties representing left of centre politics are Labour, the LibDems and the Greens. As we know, the Labour Party is itself fragmented with dividing lines between Leave and Remain (the main issue being immigration) and age. Younger members are less likely to be bothered about immigration and nationalism.

Unless left of centre parties can come to some kind of agreement, they're unlikely to win a majority, especially in a FPTP system. They're also highly unlikely to pull some of the 'centrists' away from the Conservatives if these people view the 'left' as extreme.

Frankly, the current system isn't representing the consensus, which is why I think there will be some kind of realignment in the future. It might have already started. The LDs are generally doing well in local elections and the Greens won a council seat from UKIP in the Forest of Dean. However, it's going to be a long road.

And while our parliamnet was debating Brexit, this was happening in a committee room nearby.

www.opendemocracy.net/uk/amy-hall/liam-fox-doesn-t-want-you-to-know-about-eucanada-trade-deal

You forgot to say that Labour held two seats, daphne, and that the Libdems lost two to independents. The Tory party lost one to an independent as well.

As we know, the Labour Party is itself fragmented with dividing lines between Leave and Remain (the main issue being immigration) and age.

All parties have the same dividing lines, apart from UKIP.

Did you watch Liz Truss on Marr today?
She said that article 50 was irrevocable after May had presented it to the EU. The man who wrote it said it isn't true.
Now who do we believe?

Overall, the LDs are doing well. I know about the two LD losses to Independents, because they're in my council area (Uttlesford). It's been a long story and brewing for a while and is to do with planning permission for building thousands of new houses. The loss was expected. Unfortunately, the two sitting councillors resigned suddenly and the LDs didn't have the time or resources to mount a successful campaign. The Independents (who aren't really independent) have loads of money and influence behind them, but they call themselves centrist too. They've taken over from the LDs in this council. I don't even think there is a local Labour Party.

Yes, all parties are fragmented, but the reality is that the way votes are being cast, the Labour Party is doomed. The Conservatives are experts at covering over the cracks and people perceive them as more competent. It doesn't matter whether they are in reality, because it's people's perception which matters. Corbyn's policies appeal to a niche group, which is perceived as extreme, and he doesn't have the political skill to expand that appeal.