Article 50

And I'm not castigating anyone Maisie my exact words, had you bothered to read and understand my post, was that I was exasperated with her. That's a long way from your nasty accusations.

The important part of my post was if it means so much to her.

Staying in this country does mean everything to her. I took out insurance on m house even though I never imagined I'd have a fire. It's the same mindset.

The EU could have agreed with T May before Christmas and all countries agreed a deal for EU nationals and also British living and working abroad, so why oh why blame only T May? It was the EU who were saying no to it!
What if T May had agreed to all EU nationals here being safeguarded as to homes and jobs, and the EU had then dragged their feet for years and years on the subject of our own people abroad?As we well know, the EU doesn't do anything in a hurry.
No, it has to be an agreement from all, and at the same time.

Why, oh why, has the former not taken out British citizenship before now if it now means so much to her?

Because until that disastrous Leave vote she was perfectly entitled to remain in the UK by virtue of her EU citizenship and probably didn't think that the UK woukd be daft enough to vote to leave the UK.

I'm that people in her position are being castigated by leave voters for not taking out citzenship they never thought they'd need when it was their vote which has caused all the bother.

Wasn't Prince Phillp born in Greece? Time the queen was a bit more forceful with the PM methinks. Or perhaps after nearly 70 years with him she'd be quite happy if Phillip got deported.

Because Anya she did not need it and some people were told that when they started an application -also some countries do not allow dual citizenship - I think Holland may fall into this group.

I'm very exasperated with a friend who is constantly posting Anti-Brexit propaganda on FB and marching to have the vote overturned. I've just discovered why. Despite living in the UK for over 30 years, marrying an Englishman, having two children she has never applied for British citizenship.

My next door neighbour, by comparison, has lived in the UK for 30 years, married an Englishman, had three children and has dual British citizenship, as have her children.

Both have degrees from this country, both are professional women. Why, oh why, has the former not taken out British citizenship before now if it now means so much to her?

Off to bed now. It's getting too depressing, Maizie.

We don't know what deal we will get yet, until negotiations start and then it will take ages.

The problem is that, as far as the prosperity of the UK is concerned and the prospect of improving the condition of the 'left behinds' who voted leave (which I know aren't all Leave voters but which are,IMO, morally, the most important people to consider in all this) is concerned the best 'deal' is the one we have now.

As far as I can gather, from serious commentators from the Leave, Remain and Neutral positions (yes, there are some Neutral people) we would be best served by a gradual exit over a number of years in order to sort out infraastructure, trade deals, regulatory bodies etc. Something like being an EEA member. The next worse scenario is May's apparently proposed 'Hard Brexit' which would leave us with all the work to do in a rush and as the weaker partner in trade deals; and the worst case would be just leaving with nothing agreed (which is what she is threatening if you look at the 'concession' she made on Parliament having a vote on the final deal. The choice would be her deal or crash out with nothing at all.) 'Hard' brexit is forecast to be economically very damaging; not to mention all the billions we will have to pay to the EU, and crashing out would be ruinous.
This is not 'Project Fear'; this is cold hard reality and the people who will suffer the most are the people who were suffering enough last year to vote Leave in the hope that it would improve their lives.

This blog is by a guy who has been campaigning to Leave the EU just about ever since we joined it! It's a commentary on an article with the title:*Mrs May's Brexit threatens chaos at our ports*

www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86375

It is a fair bet, writes Booker that few of the 52 percent of us who voted to leave the European Union imagined that what we were voting for might be bare shelves in our supermarkets, an end to the smooth arrival of the 30 percent of our food that we import from the EU (and much else), and the backing up of countless thousands of trucks as they wait, possibly for days, for customs clearance at Dover and Calais.

Yet such is the nightmare scenario being conjured up by the experts at the sharp end of all this trade, our main road haulage organisations, as they try to digest the shock of Theresa May's decision that we should drop out of both the EU's single market and the wider European Economic Area (EEA).

What they realise is that this would also, inevitably, mean the reappearance of customs controls at our borders with the EU (including Northern Ireland), as we drop out of the incredibly complex, electronically based system which ensures that the 12,000 lorry movements a day between the UK and the rest of the EU operate so smoothly that there are scarcely no delays.

The issue that so many people are failing to understand is that the moment we leave the EU we become what it calls "a third country". That is the inevitable, inescapable consequence of Brexit. It's what we leavers wanted, and it's what we're going to get. But we cannot and should not pretend that there are no consequences, and everything is going to be just as it was before.

As an EU Member State, it is all too easy, and we've forgotten what it was like before the border posts came down. Richard Burnett, chief executive of the Road Haulage Association, tells us that the trucks on which we rely currently enjoy such "seamless" access in each direction that "it's as easy to deliver from Milan to Manchester as it is from Manchester to Leeds.

"After Brexit", he adds, "that will no longer be the case". Unless we "get the process right", the system "for getting food into the country will grind to a halt". The same also applies to our exports worth billions a year, travelling in the other direction. ..... and it continues

And this is just one small aspect of the implications of leaving the EU.

It's immoral, Welshwife.
Roses, have you not bothered reading the articles? Do you just sit in a bubble?
UK citizens in the EU are already having a hard time, as are EU citizens in the UK. Do you really want it to continue?
Why should May not be the first to offer an olive branch?
Do you not have any feelings for people caught up in this?
They are not just waiting and seeing.

The fact of TM not guaranteeing the EU citizens their rights to stay has by the looks of it caused some of them to go back to EU early or not return to UK after visiting their home country.

We don't know what deal we will get yet, until negotiations start and then it will take ages.We all know this, so speculation is futile ( as Daleks might say!)We also know that T May wanted to guarantee the future of Brits abroad and EU workers living here but the EU (Germany) would not agree until after article 50 is triggered.

Depressing ain't it. So many aspects of UK life set to suffer. I am going to focus on local poltics for a while.

Infinitely worse

If she ploughs ahead with her hard brexit the best deal she could ever get will be infinareky worse than the deal we already have.

I leave that up to the politicians to work out. I doubt T. May reads Gransnet.

What's the best deal for the UK, then?

You keep saying that, but she's not looking for 'brownie points' she's going for the best deal for the UK.

I think initially there could have been more flexibility but TM has made it quite clear that she will not accept the 4 freedoms - if she continues with that line for all trade deals the UK will end up bartering within the UK or perhaps some trade with USA as Australia and India have both said they want free movement of people or more visas into UK before any trade and I believe other countries too.

However all this may well be academic as it is the other 27 countries which will decide the conditions under which the UK will leave and the amount they need to pay for salaries and pensions etc.

We don't know yet. Until May invokes article 50 we can't start negotiating.
May CAN decide unilaterally to do what she said and allow EU migrants to stay. That will give her some brownie points among the other EU leaders.

Surely the problem is that the only options which seem to be on offer by the EU are a complete break or a requirement to comply with all 4 EU pillars, keep paying in and (I think) retain some EU law and some subservience to the ECJ. Those options appear to be hard Brexit or pretty much no Brexit. I would much prefer the latter, but I have to say I can't square that in any way whatsoever with the referendum result. I haven't heard of anything that suggests the EU will compromise and agree to something which could provide some comfort to the remainders. Did I miss something?

Yes - I saw that too. - trying to look hard is not doing Theresa May or UK any favours. She is souring the atmosphere before any talks begin and making things difficult for several millions of people.
Everyone can see that it is unlikely the UK will end up in a better position when all is done and dusted than the one it had before - except for people like Dyson who simply wish to expand their sales in places like China.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/13/uk-treatment-of-eu-nationals-could-lead-to-backlash-against-britons-living-in-the-eu

This is worrying as well, Welshwife. May really needs to sort it now.

I saw that Jen I had seen on other sites that a number of EU nationals did not return to UK after trips home for Christmas.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/13/uk-labour-shortages-brexit-as-eu-worker-numbers-fall

Starting already. A shortage of EU workers.