Reluctant to join the discussion.

Jalima No, I'm not suggesting that people can't have opinions or an opinion opposed to mine. Please show me where I've stated that.

I have never said that as far as I am aware.

But I do think that trying to limit debate to those who profess to have a certain level of political acumen and knowledge and not merely a view or opinion obtained through everyday life would be to stifle debate, the exchange of ideas, discussion of news items, on what is essentially a forum for older people and not a political forum.

Posters may want to exchange ideas, views or opinions or just discuss what they have seen and heard with other posters - and may well learn a lot from those discussions from those who may know a lot more about the political scene.

And I don't know who has told you you're not welcome but it certainly wasn't me (and I haven't had any posts deleted as far as I know)

The first MB. Though either would fit in this context, with similar meaning.

"But I do think that trying to limit debate to those who profess to have a certain level of political acumen and knowledge and not merely a view or opinion obtained through everyday life would be to stifle debate, the exchange of ideas, discussion of news items, on what is essentially a forum for older people and not a political forum."

I have never come across even a political forum on which you must meet a knowledge bar to be allowed to post. The idea is bonkers!

Ironic that opposite meanings should be deemed "similar"

Saying that someone should have knowledge (i.e. facts and figures) rather an opinion or view before posting on any thread does stifle debate. It also means that those debating only see things from their particular viewpoint. Someone without any preconceived ideas could see things "outside the box" and point out things missed by those who consider themselves experts

Personally, I think people should be polite. It can be difficult if one is being maligned but the alternative is a return to the playground. It's not a great example for grandparents to give.

If people have greater knowledge, it can be respected as well as challenged. Personally, I have found sources of information suggested to me here by people of different views very informative and useful, often to support my own viewpoint.

I don't participate if people are using language that I don't understand, particularly political labels or theory. I suspect we all have more in common than the political views that separate us.

A website called "the Political Compass' was once popular. I found myself in the same quadrant as Ghandi while Thatcher and Blair were sitting together in the opposite corner. Left-wing and right-wing seem to me tired old stereotypes that should be retired. Indeed, all stereotypes should be consigned to the bin.

Sunseeker

I LOVE that post!

So pertinent to our times when Bremainers have been claiming that working class people are too 'ignorant' to have voted in the referendum and it should be left to our allegedly more 'expert' MPs!
What a joke!

Yes the MPs who voted against the wishes of their constituents who voted them in should take note we can just as easily vote them out next time.

I have never seen any bar on anyone on a GN politics thread. However, although we are all entitled to hold an opinion many seem to believe that opinion when voiced should be held in the same esteem whether it is informed or not. That is really unlikely to happen in a debate which is what political threads tend to be. If you want to offer an opinion based on ignorance of the facts AND have someone treat it as if it is right whether it is or not you need to chat with friends who will make all the right noises.

Not having an informed opinion should not stop you joining in. Ask questions, make suggestions, point out that this is what you think but you don't have anything to back that opinion but try not to state it as a fact. That is when, if it unproven or untrue, people are likely to tell you just that. This is a two way thing. If you join a serious debate and jump up and down saying 'I am right, I am right, I have a right to say this and you must agree' you are very likely to be shot down in flames. Arrogance and ignorance are no excuse for patronisingly assuming you do not have to 'know', as you are you it only needs you to say.

I agree GG but unfortunately arrogance and ignorance , as epitomised by D Trump, seems to be a winning formula these daysl

I do not think that arrogance and ignorance can ever be a winning formula in the long run, even in the Trump era....or on political threads.

What seems to be taking control is distortion of facts, now known as alternative facts. Somehow that is more worrying, imho, than arrogance and ignorance, because it shows willful, macchiavellian manipulation and can take much longer to unmask and undo.

I have never seen anybody 'jumping up and down saying I am right, I am right' and where is all this arrogance and ignorance? Not on Gransnet for sure.
Calling the political and news threads ' serious debate ' may also be going a bit far,
And off putting as well for a lot of posters, the threads are there surely to debate ( if you want to) but also to simply comment on a news/political subject.
If you read most of the comments on this thread, they are saying that the political threads have become so daunting to many that they will not post on them, they are not meant to be a debating society, but an exchange of views.That would be more interesting, more inclusive and it would be good to widen them to many other posters.
At the moment it is the few same names that crop up on these threads, because others won't join in.

I think there has been a lot of arrogance and ignorance expressed both in the past and more recently. Desperate times arouse strong feelings.
While it would be arrogant to insist that only "experts" have the right to voice their opinions, and also nonsense, yet we do have a responsibility to find out what we can, to check facts rather than the current vogue for "alternative facts" and not to base arguments on sweeping sensationalist assertions such as feature on the front pages of some newspapers or in media such as Fox News. I think we have a duty to aware of the difference between informed comment and propaganda and not to spread "gossip". Good quote from Bertrand Russell.

I agree that if quoting the words of others (social media blogs/ newspapers etc) then you should quote the source.
There is also a lot of opinion sometimes on it's own, sometimes mixed up in the quotes, but if we were all to say IMHO all the time it would look a bit silly perhaps.
I think the point is, making the political threads for all ( as a poster said ' not needing a first from Oxford in PPE' to join in) would be more interesting.

not needing a first from Oxford in PPE' to join in
Assumptions are not helpful. Unless they are told no one on here has any idea of the education of those who have chosen to acquired knowledge. It seems like some form of inverted snobbery to me to make statements that try to put down the acquisition of knowledge that they are not prepared to do. Most acquired knowledge, accredited in some way or not, is more about application than IQ.

make not do.

No, roses I didn't mean just quoting the source, I meant not repeating unverifiable "gossip", in other words scandal-mongering. As a child at school one of the pieces of advice I remember was "Check your facts" so don't make sweeping statements which cannot be backed up, and if information is readily available, don't reject it because you can't be bothered to read an article but settle for the headlines. (Of course I don't mean "you" when I say "you"!)

GracesGranMK2 perhaps you missed this post from daphnedill on Thu 02-Feb-17 11:24:38 which raised a few hackles.

The heading of this area is 'News and Politics'. It's the only really serious part of GN. I appreciate reading knowledgeable and analytical posts by others. Frankly, I don't want to read dumbed down politics or opinions based on little more than myth or prejudice. Therefore, I would hope that posters have a certain amount of knowledge.

But disparaging the views of someone who may have a view gained from experience and not from studying and acquiring knowledge would seem to be a form of intellectual snobbery.
Saying 'don't be silly' or similar disparaging and personal remarks to posters who express a view is unkind and just the kind of reason to put many people off posting on the political threads.
No wonder people do not venture on to those threads or, if they dare to dip a toe in the water, retire hastily.

I think that you get the general point though GGM2 that the political threads are for all to comment on if they wish.More than that perhaps, that if they do comment and are told that what they have said is rubbish ( and worse) and that they should leave the thread to people 'who know what they are talking about' then a sort of snobbish intellectual tone enters ( always unpleasant).

MawBroon I should hope not, or no more cakes for you when we meet up!

that post from Daphne really made me cross . What puzzles me is I am dismissed when I say what I have learned by canvassing , these are the opinions of voters, I get short shrift and am told what some expert! has written in a blog.

To say I understand why some fear immigration causes accusations of being racist.

Because you have actual knowledge ab of what your Labour voters want.Rather than intellectual thought on what is good for them, which is what some in the Labour Party ( Corbyn and friends) etc want.

Dare I say that not wanting to listen to the views and fears of people who may not have studied politics and economics but are living with the consequences is precisely why the populist movement is gaining ground?
It may be playing on people's hopes and fears but it is the perception that the elitists do not want to listen to the views of ordinary people that is at the root cause and that elitist view has come through on some threads in microcosm.

Ana Sat 04-Feb-17 10:14:12

I had missed it Anna but I would agree with the thoughts expressed. As I said anyone can become knowledgeable and analytical. You (me for instance) may not be as knowledgeable or able to analyse as coherently as some but, what Maw describes as repeating unverifiable "gossip", doesn't throw any real light on the subject and there are other threads members can do that on.