Open Britain - Hard Brexit

There are some people who really feel better going on a march. I am definitely not one of them but I know they love it. They will continue marching when all has been decided.
But a march no matter how many people go on it is only a march. Shouting loud makes you feel better but does not necessariyl mean the marchers are a democratic majority, nor does it alter the passage of events or their outcome.

So from a historical perspective, MargaretX, would you argue that all protest is a waste of time? That people should accept the election of tyrants and dictators without question? That the status quo has never been changed by demonstrations, peaceful or otherwise?

Some might argue that marching is a safety valve, it gives people the opportunity for self expression. We know that the march against the Iraq war didn't stop the war, but it didn't make the war right.

Michael Gove's ideas for the future - any one from Surrey Heath here who would like to see lots of new housing?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-regulations-michael-gove-environment-drugs-a7649041.html

I thank those who marched yesterday. I was unable to go, but was with you in spirit.

It's amusing/galling to read the Brexiteers calling for those who wished to remain in the EU to 'suck it up'. To the calls for us to unite to make a success of Brexit, I can only say that I have yet to hear what a successful Brexit is.

With the country more disunited than ever before, I for one see no reason to shut up and accept the "will of the people". I personally do not believe that we will be anything other than worse off under Brexit and I therefore do not wish to work towards making the UK worse off. Although I agree with those who say that it was heartening (At long last!) to hear Corbyn and Keir Starmer today saying that they will not vote for a deal which will not be good for the UK.

I don't believe the £59B payment is something even the most staunch supporters of Brexit could have imagined.

Some people who went on yesterday's march were marching for the first time in their lives because they believe passionately that we must stop this brexit madness for the sake of our children and grandchildren.

These are decent, thoughtful patriotic British people who did not believe the lies told by the Leave campaign. We hope in the next few months as the realities of this disastrous course become apparent, more of those who were misled last year come to realise this must be stopped.

I have only seen positive reports from other people who went on the March - many were pleased to meet other people in a similar position to them. I also saw comments from EU immigrants saying how lovely it was to meet British people who had great sympathy with them in their plight.

MargaretX This was the first march I had ever attended in my life. As an immigrant who has integrated into another culture, I would have thought you would have understood why I feel as I do. I feel very strongly that the UK is throwing away something very precious, which is why I went to London yesterday. It was wonderful to meet so many people who have the same values as I do. The Met estimated that there were at least 100,000 people there - all very civilised and proud to be British.

durhamjen I have no idea why you are addressing remarks to me in your post today at 11.24 as my contributions to this thread have been about shopping at Lidl and farming days ago

I thought I had posted without realising and was getting in my old age but perhaps it is you who is ?

Apologies, and grovelling, Jalima.
It was Monica, not you. I am very sorry; you are not at all alike in your views.
I was busy doing lots of thinga at once, that's my only excuse.

That's OK, I thought I was losing the plot, it has been quite a day!

And I must say that I always find M0nica's views very interesting and worth reading.

I think what is important now as we move towards negotiating terms with the EU is for the sort of values demonstrated by the march, and the serious thought for our future economic welfare are also displayed by the negotiators.

This must include a strong partnership with the EU, and as far as possible access to the single market and customs union. It is what the CBI and the vast majority of SMEs are asking for. Freedom of movement will of course cease, but there must be a recognition that immigration from the EU will continue as of necessity.

The hard line Brexiters, who are calling for the UK to crash out of the EU as soon as possible, are a tiny minority both in parliament and the country more generally. The values of cooperation and good will displayed on the march must prevail, in order that we achieve a successful and economically vibrant economy.

Ginny I am the one who said 'suck it up' and I am most emphatically NOT a Brexiteer. I am actually writing all these posts from my holiday home in France so I will be affected by any EU decisions about UK citizens in Europe

And no soft Brexit is not called "remain". It is called EEA, EFTA, the Customs Union, amongst other things. membership of these are not excluded if you have a Hard Brexit. Hard Brexit is coming out of the EU with very few concessions from Europe. None of these organisations can replace what we lose when we leave the EU.

I just think it is undemocratic to be trying to change a decision made by a clear majority decision like the referendum. Do all you can to be part of the conversation, lobby your MP on specific issues, put your voice and views forward in any forum discussing the issues of the terms of the divorce. Democracy means accepting the decision of the majority, but negotiating for a representation of those who disagree, especially when the issue was nearly 50:50. Trying to change the decision in favour of the minority is not democratic.

What ever is the point in continuing with the referendum debate? It isn't going to be changed. What we must do now is to try to mitigate the damage, as hard Brexit should be something to avoid at all cost,

Hard Brexit have supporters like Farage, Hopkins, Trump, et al. Who supports those idiots?

Good post ww. At the end of the day, all we can realistically do as individuals, is to simply go on living our lives, to the very best of our ability and strictures of our bank balances and hope that ultimately the impact on the country and everyone's lives is positive.

Not quite that simpleGinny for many people in a differEnt EU country to their own and for those married to a partner from another country.

welsh that is what I mean when I cite the values shown onSaturday's march I.e. tolerance and openness -so British, - also good neighbours with respect and willingness to cooperate. If we stick with our British values and ignore the siren calls of the likes of Farage, Dyson, Hopkins etc we won't go far wrong.

Someone on BBC news from another country said of the UK when commenting on the attack last Wednesday, how struck he was by the quietness and calmness the British showed post attack. He was extremely impressed. That is us!! Not the crassness and extreme language so beloved by the far right and people like Hopkins, Farage etc. (shudder).

I wasn't going to add a comment to this thread, as it seemed to be going around in circles,but, reading your post ww it seems that you have accepted the referendum decision ( but others haven't) and up to a few posts ago they were still hoping to 'halt the madness of leaving the EU' and other such words.Monica makes perfect sense (as she usually does on any thread) article 50 will be triggered on Wed. And there is no going back from that. There can of course be no more freedom of movement, as you say, but apart from that, it will be up to the Government ( with Parliament having a say) to get the best deal it can.No doubt we will have to pay an eye watering amount of money to the EU as part of the leaving deal, but that will be the last monies we ever have to pay them, and then we are free of the whole thing.

Of course, I do realise that being free of the whole thing won't please some of you, but that is democracy

No rose I still think it is an insane decision, but now that the mad choice has been made I think it is for those with good sense to ensure any daft ideas by the hard Brexiters are mitigated in order that we have a sensible negotiation, and future for our children.

I am not sure that you are entirely correct in the idea that our e xit fee will be the last we pay to th EU. I have also to disagree with you that we shall be free of the EU. Business fervently hope that we are not as do the sheep farmers in Wales, the factories in the North, the financial service s in London etc etc.

As an aside. Remainders accept the referendum, we simply think it is mad, and are perfectly entitled to do so, as were the hard Brexiters for 40 years of their life.

Oh, so you haven't accepted it then!
Well, your previous post seem to give the impression that you had.
You may think it's a mad choice, but millions of Leavers also thought that the mad choice was staying in democracy had it's say, and the vote was to Leave.
We shall be free of the EU, not in trade, but in having to kow-tow to any of their decisions, and the crazy free for all of unlimited immigration will be the first thing to go.

As a further aside to your aside Remainers for the large part on this forum do not accept the result of the referendum, otherwise they wouldn't constantly rail against it.

MOnica the definition of "hard Brexit" that I understand to be generally accepted means WTO rules, high tariffs etc. It does not include anything like EEA or the Customs Union. Obviously if that is not the definition that you understand then we are bound to be at cross-purposes.
I don't think anyone thinks Brexit can be stopped at this stage. I think it possible that people might change their minds in the face of the reality of the situation. I certainly think a long interim period of fudging and uncertainty is very likely. I also think that it is unlikely to take forty years before the mood changes. It is certainly not what I hear from younger generations.
We shall see.

rose read my words carefully. I ACCEPT the referendum (get it?) but think the decision mad.

You are reading what you want into the remainers posts. Ask mamie dj dd etc if they accept the result and I am 100%certain they will say yes but that they don't agree with it.

I will now argue for a secure economic future for our children amongst other things. As is my right as a British person.