Labour now and then

PS. Facebook and Twitter have every right to censor material on their sites to protect their 'brands', in the same way MSN/Microsoft did years ago.

John ?McDonald claims Corbyn's extreme inner calm is steadying the party . really?

Open war in the Labour Party has broken out.

Ah well! Maybe they should all do meditation - that'll sort it!

That's what I've been saying for months. Labour needs to state very clearly what it stands for and those who don't like it will have to go off and form another party.

The head of Momentum has been recorded setting out the goal of Momentun. Now it is clear what Cirbyn meant by - untill the job is done.

I think all sane people know right from wrong and are perfectly aware of the vile unacceptably unpleasant things both written and said. People push the boundaries as far as they are able in the interests of free speech. Would I be able to call a black person the N word in the interests of free speech? Of course I wouldn't! (I don't want to!!!!) There can never or should ever be complete free speech!

There isn't.

We have social rules about politeness and its obverse. These, necessarily, are flexible rules that take account of context. Once governments or other powerful organisations start policing speech, though, it ends up being about oppression. That is what I'm against.

Jon Lansman wants Momentum to join with Unite to take control of the Labour Party

There was a discussion on GN about free speech some months ago. I posted some links to some really nasty hate speech, but somebody reported me and the links were deleted, along with comments from some on here about how disgusting I was to post the links. Therefore, I have no intention of posting any links now.

You must have read about the antics of companies such as Cambridge Analytica, which use Google and Facebook algorithms in a very sophisticated way to target internet users.

Organisations such as Britain First target certain users based on their online habits. At least, BF's activities are relatively transparent and can be monitored and challenged. However, there are much more sinister organisations which are doingthe same thing and some of their posts are truly vile. The completely fake news about Muslim sexual harrassment in Frankfurt was circulated and totally believed by recipients for some days. There are also cases where Facebook and Twitter users have been subjected to really vile abuse. And that's just the tip of the iceberg!

Fortunately, Google advertisers are beginning to pull their ads as a protest against some of the sites Google allows and sometimes places at the top of the search listings, so Google is going to be forced to monitor the site more closely.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/20/labour-in-battle-with-momentum-for-its-future-says-watson

Tom Watson makes me have a wry smile when he says about Momentum taking over the Labour Party :-

" The party’s deputy leader said he was ' unaware ' of the extent of the plan before hearing comments by Momentum’s founder, Jon Lansman, who was secretly recorded addressing supporters at a meeting of a new branch in London this month."

I regard this as a battle for the future existence of the Labour party. This is high stakes, and I hope my fellow members are going to understand that.”
--

Really Tom? Everybody and his dog has known this from the start of Momentum , it wouldn't take long to find him mentioning it before now either..

He said:-

" It was vital for Labour and Unite members who opposed Momentum’s ambition to take action, Watson said.

That’s why I decided to speak out. I think this is so serious, I think it’s vital that ordinary members of Unite are made aware of this plan, that they know what’s going on inside their union and they take action to block it.

“But it’s also important for Labour party members to understand that there will be votes at our conference on this, this year, and they have to intervene as well.”
----

Is he saying vote Len McClusky out and vote for Gerard Coyne as Unite Leader as I have said Unite Members should do on several posts?.

If it is that's serious stuff because Unite and a few other Unions have joined with Momentum to keep Corbyn as Leader and happily taken on the Parliamentary Labour Party, ' the Party within a Party' issue.

Unite and Momentum have built up a very strong hand and will not be put back in the box without a determined fight, it could get very messy for the MP's in Parliament if Theresa May called a snap election , deselections all over the place , in fighting like you've not seen before and my money would be on Momentum /Lansman winning.

When there was talk of The Labour Party splitting into 2 parties again a while back I thought, na, now I am thinking , 'UM could well do'. I am not so sure that has not been the hope by Momentum Leadership all along.

Tom Watson uses the word 'Entryism' when speaking of Momentum , the infiltration of a political party by members of another group, with the intention of subverting its policies or objectives, I think Momentum has never been happy with ' Entryism ', it has been quite successful in that!! Momentum and Lansman are pushing to ' take over/control ' Labour in it's entirety.

Surely as the months have crept by and we have witnessed so much , those who ' categorically denied ' this was behind Momentum cannot comprehend what is still going on and keep accusing the Parliamentary Labour Party MP's of 'bad behaviour'.

POGS, Corbyn knows he will never be PM, he is keeping the seat warm for this takeover of the party . If McClusky wins then it is the end of the Labour party.

thatbags

I read your link yesterday to Nick Cohen, 10.36.

I agree with the 'new title' Kingsley Amis offered to Robert Conquest concerning his book 'The Great Terror'.

POGS Momentum is losing support from many of its young members. This could seriously backfire for Lansmann and I think some Labour MPs know that and are just sitting it out.

I've mentioned this before, but I'll repeat it. My DD is a Labour Party member (but not Momentum). She,and many of her friends, were impressed by Ed Miliband, but some thought he was a bit right-wing and thought Corbyn was a breath of fresh air. I know that many of them have now become seriously disillusioned.

Not only that, but they see the cliques at meetings. Many of the people taking control are bullies and the younger members feel that they're irrelevant. I know my DD dislikes the "lefties" as much as he does the socially conservative old timers. They also see that Corbyn doesn't have what it takes to win an election.

I don't have a crystal ball, but many of these former younger Labour supporters are moving over to the LibDems or Greens. There's a new cohort of students and they've forgotten the student loans fiasco. I suspect what might happen is that, in time, moderate Labour MPs will find a way to force Corbyn out or form their own party, leaving Corbyn and Momentum on the fringe.

It's going to be almost impossible for any Labour Party to have a majority (Scotland,boundary changes), so some of them are already looking at cross-party co-operation,which they already do in working parties. Brexit has changed all the divisions.

Tom Watson has most certainly 'been aware' of what Momentums intentions were/are.

He is today doing the rounds on TV I note and is at least 'putting his money where his mouth is' so I will give him credit for that.

I remembered ' just one ' of the threads on Corbyn/Momentum I have started on this before if anybody is interested.

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1227786-Could-Labour-split-Tom-Watson-calls-off-talks?pg=20

The Libs will not work with a far left party Daphne and this what Corbyn wants, he always has . Which party would work with the Momentum and Unite party?

The Labour Party , it will have no choice unless it splits.

Or is that a question that applies if the Labour Party 'has' split in 2.?

Power is a funny game and it wouldn't surprise me if the SNP's , Green's , Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems would care a hoot as long as the end game is achieved and that is obviously power .

It does seem time for the Labour Party to split, it is in the death throes anyway . I will not support a communist party .

Companies like Google and FB make their money through advertising. The problem has arisen because ads made by reputable firms have appeared alongside extremist videos and revolting stuff that normal people don't want to be associated with. I think rather than telling Google, FB, and Twitter to delete the horrible stuff, they need to sort out where the adverts go so that an ad by, say, the Guardian or the Royal Bank of Scotland, doesn't appear alongside extremist and nasty stuff as if the good guys were endorsing the bad guys.

This is a different problem from censorship and I think this is the one that needs to be fixed. I also think the firms in question will fix it because they won't want to lose revenue by people pulling ads off so as not to appear near extremism.

As you were re Labour Party. My post was not really following on recent posts but earlier ones.

More large companies have withdrawn their adverts from Google, well done Yvette Cooper

This post might offend some people and I understand if people want it deleted, but the following is the kind of thing people get on Facebook.

A Muslim female, who is not especially well-known and is always rational and polite in her posts, received a number of posts on Twitter along the lines of "You could do with a good licking out of your Muzzie *unt". The abuse went on for days from different usernames. It was either a co-ordinated effort or one person using different usernames, possibly with a proxy server to avoid detection.

Personally, I find that kind of post revolting and if I had been the lady in question, I would have been upset. The use of different usernames meant that it wasn't possible to block the sender without another one appearing. The only option was for her to put up with it or close her account. That's bullying.

There are a number of extremist groups who 'gatecrash' Facebook groups to do the same thing, whether they're LGBT, religious, political groups or whatever. They can't be reasoned with. Goodness knows who the people are, but they're certainly not enlightened, rational or intelligent. Extremist groups also use social media to recruit and radicalise new supporters.

Do you find that kind of thing acceptable in the name of free speech thatbags? I'm afraid I don't and the problem is increasing. Facebook and Twitter have some ability to trace people and I think they should, as they have done with Luciana Berger's abusers.

It can't be stopped completely, but Yvette Cooper is right IMHO to try and identify posters and ensure that social media platforms take prompt action.

PS. I agree with you POGS. From what I've seen, I can't see how the divisions in the Labour Party can be healed.

Anniebach

Yvette Cooper is the Chair of Home Affairs Select Committee (after Keith Vaz's shenanigans).

It is the ' cross party ' Home Affairs Committee as a whole that should be praised or cursed as the case may be dependent on your view of course. Cooper is the spokesperson.

I know I'm being pedantic

Thanks for the correction POGS. I assumed it was Cooper's personal initiative.

I don't think Cooper would be a very good leader anyway.

Caroline Flint spoke a lot of sense about Momentum on The Daily Politics Show.She said the Labour Party was not a revolutionary party, it was one that had won elections recently, and they didn't want a Trotskyite party.Well said her!