Article 50 trigger 29th March

Did anyone see Donald Tusck speaking after receiving Article 50? Short and sad really but unlike TM he did mention the British people who did not want to be leaving the EU.

We could still be a big European bloc Maizie without being one country which is what Germany and France have had in mind ever since the outset.

Some very good posts from Luckygirl and NFkDumpling

Yes there are two ways of looking at that Maizie. I tend to look at Switzerland as an example.

I fear large "blocks" - the potential for conflict with other blocks is frightening

If you look at the history of Europe prior to WW2 you will see that it was composed of little 'blocks' constantly at war with each other. For hundreds of years. With the least powerful 'little blocks' being constantly walked over and changing hands at a rate of knots. I rather like the idea of 'big block' Europe standing firm against the influence of Putin's Russia and Trump's USA.

Lovely post NfKDumpling It seems the only thing we disagree on is: I love being part of the UK. My OH always says he is English, I say I'm British

I agree with a great deal of what Nfk has said. The EU has lost its way and we are not the only country within it that is looking at whether they are in the right place.

I fear large "blocks" - the potential for conflict with other blocks is frightening.

Large organisations on the scale of the EU do not function efficiently or with sensitivity to local needs. It is simply impossible. The fact that millions of pounds are wasted trekking the parliament back and forth between two venues very clearly illustrates how this cumbersome organsiation has lost its way - everyone acknowledges that this trek is nonsense, but no-one knows how to stop it.

Suppose it were a decision to go to war and no-one could stop the rock rolling down the hill because the systems are too cumbersome?

Not all people who voted out are racist or little Englanders - some people just recognise that the EU has lost its way and we are all powerless to change that.

'we are with Europe, but not of it, we are linked but not compromised, we are interested and associated, but not absorbed'
Quote from part of CHurchill speech which sums up exactly how I and my family feel.
Excellent post NfkDumpling.

I've been reading Richard North's blog again. He's interesting because he has always been anti-eu. He voted -to leave in 1975 and has campaigned vigorously against memebership ever since. But his objections were to the political implications of 'ever closer union', not to the trade aspects. He is utterly horrified by the way that the process of leaving is being implemented. He is horrified because of the effect it will have on trade and its negative implications for our economy.

Leaving aside the political implications of remaining in the EU (which don't bother me too much as I have never thought our UK 'democracy' is anything to write home about) what I do think is that a healthy democracy has its foundations in a healthy economy. It seems to me that seriously damaging our economy by leaving the EU leaves the UK vulnerable to domestic unrest which could turn very ugly. Given the extraordinary state of UK politics at the moment, with the collapse of the Labour Party as a creddible opposition and the undoubted influence of far right populism I wonder if the UK can survive the double whammy of damaged economy and political uncertainty without serious disruption.

Not sure if I've explained myself particularly clearly here. I'd like to think that we could resolve and perhaps even reform our domestic political scene but the added turmoil of Bexit might just exacerbate our problems. I certainly don't think it will help at all in any attempts to achieve a fairer and more equable society in the UK.

Anyway, here's Richard North's blog for anyone who might be interested: www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86426

I can't say that Churchill's views are of any great importance to me. He is the past, and not without fault, and we have to look to the future. I do not share the view that our future is as black as some people fear. It is uncertain at this stage, and uncertainty is sometimes hard to deal with, but my guess is that when our GC look back on all this (after we are long gone) they will not be fretting about it.

The people have voted - I know, the referendum should never have happened, and we were sold lies (on both sides, as happens with every election) - but this is where we are. All we can do is encourage opposition to those future decisions that we see as unfavourable, and endorse those that seem favourable via our MPs.

daphne I'm not as articulate or learned as most of you, but what did I want to achieve?

Fairness. Equality with the rest of the world. At the moment we seemed to be overrun by people from Eastern Europe whilst previously they were from all over, admittedly many from the Commonwealth which is apparently discouraged now, but worldwide. I feel too that the people on the ground in many Eastern European countries are suffering from loosing too many good workers creamed off to the richer west. Workers trained by them to boot.

Pride in being British again. A silly thing you probably think. Why would I want to be British? But I do. My parents and grandparents fought to be British and I'm proud to be so. (In fact don't tell, but I'm quite proud to be English - but that's really looked down on.) This really hit home when a friends child was told by her teacher that she wasn't British, she was European. I don't feel European - although being from Norfolk I'm proud too of my Dutch connections. They're family, but don't live in the same house.

To have our government in control. I can understand exactly why Scotland would want to be independent from London. I feel exactly the same about Brussels. I get a bit confused here I admit, as our ties with Scotland go back a very long way and I like them being part of Britain - but a federal Britain could work. Only four countries with a common heritage.

We're not equal within the EU. We contribute a very large chunk of funds but it's obvious that, because we have exemptions, the other main countries despise us, otherwise Mr Cameron would have got somewhere with his negotiations instead of the crumbs he was thrown. Basically he was patted on the head and sent back into his kennel. We punch well below our weight. We blotted our copy book by not rushing into the original club so had to grovel to be accepted in in the end - but its very grudging and I don't think many really like us.

The EU was a good concept although not as good as the Common Market which I was more than happy with. But it's not working. It's a vast Leviathan lumbering inefficiently along absorbing money. Too much is being wasted. This is the first time so many countries have come together and tried to become one. A prototype. And like most prototypes it doesn't really work. It needs to disband and start again from scratch. It's not a coming together of equals but two or three powerful Western Countries lauding it over the rest. Had it have stuck to the nine more equal Western European countries I think there's a chance we could have made a go of it, but it's imploding in slow motion. OK, I'm a rat wanting to leave a sinking ship - but rats survive and there are other ships.

Oh dear, Nfk! No, I don't suppose Churchill did see Germany as being the most powerful country in Europe, but he did hope for a united Europe (or, at least, Western non-communist Europe), politically, economically and culturally.

So if you didn't fall for the spin, what exactly did you hope to achieve? Or are you another one who can't say?

Did you read my quote by Churchill about 'federalist aspirations'?

I don't believe that we are a far cry from the original intentions. I believe passionately that we have experienced a long period of peace in Europe precisely because we have been forced to work together. The power and influence the EU has over the UK (all those nasty Brussels bureaucrats) has been vastly exaggerated.

My children are 24 and 19. I believe passionately that their future has been given away and I will do anything, including being part of groups supporting the EU, to reduce the pain for them.

This middle of the road Brexiter did know that a single market - with the EU - is unlikely and cetainly did realise that immigration would not be reduced - but would be changed for a fairer policy giving worldwide coverage.

I dispute this persistent Remainer assertion that only Brexiters didn't know what they were voting for and only Remainers did. I know several who'd voted Remain believing it to be out of the frying pan into the fire and who regret their decision realising that it wasn't going to result in war and in fact we are a strong capable nation.

And I don't believe daphnedill that when Churchill spoke of the governments of Europe coming together he had in mind a united states of Europe dominated by Germany. He had after all just led a world war to prevent just that.

There are many things that I feel passionately about and take the relevant actions; but I tend to confine myself to those things where I feel I can make a difference.

I am sorry if the phrase "steamed up" has given offence - that was not my intention. But I can see that many posters are very worried about the future and that comes through in their posts.

I suppose I am just trying to say that change happens and we have to try and achieve an element of inner peace in order to carry on from day to day.

I am always signing petitions and writing to my MP - and I recognise that there is little else I can do so I do not let it get to me.

We have always been on the periphery of the EU, carping and grumbling from the sidelines and refusing to put our heart into the aims of the organisation. What we have now seems to me to have been inevitable and arises out of the EU's unfortunate federalist aspirations (which is a far cry from what we signed up to originally) and the failure of our politicians to negotiate fair deals for Britain. We can only hope that they will do better at negotiating now - but I take heart from the fact that the EU needs us as much as we need it.

There's a decent summary of the issues which need to be negotiated over the next two years (18 months?) here:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/brexit-negotiations-eight-key-points-you-need-to-know

There will be by-elections during that time, when people can make their voices heard. It's unlikely that the UK will be concluded by the next General Election, so that will be a major opportunity to have a say. Who knows what "events" will take place between now and 2020?

Many people will be affected by leaving the EU and all of them have a right to have their voices heard. "Little people" might not have very loud voices, but big organisations do. I have no doubt that they will scrutinise negotiations and any decisions.

Meanwhile, parliamentary business will go on. There's a real risk that Brexit will be used to divert attention from other issues, such as workers' rights and the environment. Hopefully, the UK will make savings from leaving the EU (not convinced), so it will be up to the regions to make sure that EU funding is replaced. Voters in those areas should be aware.

PS. I wonder if the discovery of new oil off the Shetlands will have an effect.

Lucky - why use prejoritive words like 'steamed up' instead of 'caring' or 'passionate'? There is obviously a limit to what we as individuals can do ( although writing to your MP as you do is on thing). Many of us ( as I know you do) have caring responsibilities or may have ill health and disabilities of our own to contend with. So yes of course many of us will be able to do very little to directly contribute to the debates that will occur but you make it sound as though there is no point in 'getting steamed up'. There will be many individuals and organisations who will care passionately about the example I gave about deregulating the labour market and I for one will cheer them on as they can make a difference. Thank goodness they exist. I won't give a world weary sigh and elk the there's no point . I'll contribute money if they need it for campaigning .i know not all Brexiteers are hard right but there have been several high profile MPs who have spoken quite gleefully about deregulation of the labour market. And no we are not where we are in any meaningful sense- we are leaving but it's where we are going and how we get there that matters now

Sorry, Luckygirl but I, and millions of others, are struggling to see what areas we are going to 'win' in.

I hear all that; but what good can we do? I communicate with my MP over issues and will continue to do so over aspects of the Brexit agreement; but I am not prepared to expend emotional energy on it. We can make our views known, but there is no advantage in getting steamed up about it - we just have to keep going and hope that the positives will become apparent.

Not all "Brexiteers" are far right.

As I said - the referendum was a wrong decision and should never have taken place - but it did, and we are where we are.

Lucky I couldn't agree with you less. There are so many many decisions to be made on which we will need to make our voices heard. There is much scope for change within the confines of the fact we are leaving. I'm not keeping calm - for one thing I don't trust the holy trinity to even grasp some of the basic principles of what will be up for decision - not between us and the EU but internally. One example will be workers' rights. Some hard line Brexiteers see all this as a golden opportunity to deregulate the labour market - by keeping involved with all these debates( not just letting then get on with it) we can still effect change and compromise. It's sort of like we've lost the war but could still win some battles

That's exactly what the far right Brexiters are hoping we will do.

What's done is done - we just have to keep calm and carry on. We will lose in some areas and win in others - that's just how life is.

DC should never have called the referendum; but he did and we just have to get on with things now.

Do you think Jeremy Hunt will be wishing he was in a different job?

inews.co.uk/essentials/news/health/jeremy-hunt-health-committee-brexit-social-care/

This is what he said in January.

This is what he's got, as far as nurses are concerned.

inews.co.uk/essentials/news/health/nhs-hospitals-see-sharp-fall-in-eu-nurses-after-brexit-vote-sparking-staff-crisis-fears/

It's just been said she's signed the letter.
Can't believe how upset I feel.

Best Tweet received today:

"I bought a Brexit calculator the other day. Nothing adds up but it's excellent at taking away and division."