Martin McGuinness

It's easy to forget just how bad things were. Truly awful.

granny violence breeds violence. Wherever there is terrorism in the world you will get the sort of situation you described. Can you imagine this happening if the whole of Eire had seceded from Britain in 1923?

Violence on the scale of the troubles would never have happened.

www.bbc.co.uk/history/events/bloody_friday_belfast

Just a little reminder to those who cite Bloody Sunday (I don't condone this). This is an example of what we had to deal with in Belfast in 1972. I was caught up in this and remember running through the centre of Belfast trying to find a place of safety. Please please look at it!

The death of Martin McGuiness is a significant event and deserves the level of media/news coverage its being given.
The history speaks for itself, Catholics were oppressed, discriminated against etc. I visited Belfast frequently during the late 70's/early 80s to stay with friends. My then 10 year old and her friend were playing in the garden in the peaceful university area of Belfast, they came in to say some local boys had asked what religion they were, what schools they went to. We moved our car away from the house and brought our children inside.
I've never felt that the behaviour of the various republican/loyalist paramilitary groups was justified. Forgiveness is always difficult and thankfully, I'm not in a position with Mr McG where this is something I have to really work at. It's my belief that Martin McGuiness didn't simply join the peace movement because it was easier, or helped him avoid prosecution. I believe he believed the only way to achieve peace in NI was by negotiation. The friendship he developed with Ian Paisley speaks to the genuine commitment both these men showed to the peace process. RIP Martin McGuiness and thanks for your contribution to peace.

Dont believe for one minute it was all about fighting for a cause,remember the protection rackets,loan sharking, prostitution rackets, money laundering and drug running that the IRA ran as well as the murders. Dont forget the horrors they put Catholic families through because a young catholic girl was pregnant and unmarried. Our the food they took out of childrens mouths when parents had to hand over the last few pounds in their purses for the cause. Freedom Fighters my backside

Thanks whitewave for giving a balanced overview. Can I add that the corruption and bias of the Northern Ireland police force only added to the resentment. It has taken years to sort this out. Those who judge the actions of the IRA in isolation are just showing the same lack of understanding that caused the conflict in the first place. It worries me greatly because "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
In the 50s the British thought they had beaten the Irish republican movement. It re-emerged stronger and better organised. Only real recognition of grievances, admission about what really happened and commitment to peace will ensure it continues. McGuiness knew this better than most.

The death of Mr McG has been all over the Ch4 7pm news tonight, for at least half an hour. I got fed up at that point and went out to the kitchen. It's really too much. A five minute mention would have been quite enough. Any more than that is totally undeserved.

If you look at the history of British rule in Ireland, the surprise would have been if we hadn't encouraged a terrorist or two. The British are certainly not innocent in these exchanges, with Bloody Sunday more recently and the famine in the 19th century, something that would never had been allowed on the British mainland. The suffering was truly dreadful, and to ignore such events when looking at the IRA and its subsequent actions leads to the sort of reaction we see on these pages. Even the extent that Catholics were kept out of certain employment must have caused resentment and hatred.

Of course what the IRA did was disgusting, but so did the unionists and British Army take part in outrage. No one comes out of this long period of rule innocent.

McGuiness was poacher turned gamekeeper. We should be thankful to the big leaders who brought peace to Northern Ireland. We should pray it continues.

May he R,I,H

Jud - close enough for me though ?

disgruntled Conservative would not begin to describe the hatred I would feel if that had been a relative of mine.

And I hardly think we on Gransnet need to be careful about posting our thoughts as our blinkered attitudes and uncalled criticism !!! - really? - would hardly be sufficient tip any balance in NI.

I don't think, having lived through those years, our attitudes on here are 'blinkered' and any criticism 'uncalled for'.

Trisher, my mistake. Apologies.

Fitzy54 Tebbit was mentioned by Marelli who thought "hit the nail on the head' I simply answered that.

"God posts" Fitzy? Why thank you but I don't pretend to omnipotence

I would agree that Norman Tebbit's views are tainted by his personal tragedy, and that there was no need to criticise the peace process. But I imagine many others in a similar position would do the same. Mentioning him at all is a total red herring and seems to be no more than a grab at an opportunity to have a go at the Tories. Jud, Swanny - god posts. As for MM, he was a terrorist in a country which at the time was thriving on hatred and with many others just the same as him -determined to have their way by whatever means - whether the objective was a united ireland or a continuation of the union. To be honest, I've no idea how I would have turned out if I had been brought up over there in either camp. Hopefully no supporter of violence but who knows how they would react when brought up in such a situation. In another life MM might have been everyone's favourite high school teacher. In any event he may have started out badly, but he ended up well, which seems to me better than the other way around. RIP.

And if it was his 'keep out of gaol card' it worked for which people could heave a sigh of relief.

Just a little correction trisher when you say " sometimes innocent bystanders were the victims of the violence". I would like to repeat what I said in my earlier post, that MAINLY it was the innocent people going about their daily business who were killed and injured by IRA violence in the early years of the 'Troubles' before it escalated into full blown sectarian strife. The aim, I think, was to destabilise society and call into question the status quo.

What those of you who are so angry about MMcG need to remember is that there would probably never have been a peace process without him and many more would have died. The only people who had any influence on the Provisional IRA were the leaders themselves. It could never have been imposed from outside. Not by the British government, Bill Clinton or any other international peace negotiator. The people who controlled, and still control, what happens on the ground here are the community leaders on both sides. This was MMcG's legacy to us here in N Ireland.

I wasn't aware anyone else had died just now, I thought we were discussing McGuinness and his life.

if it was left to some on gransnet we'd still have violence on all sides
If it was up to most of us we wouldn't have violence to start with.
All sides of what anyway?

Is belligerent pacifist a contradiction in terms?

To discuss the IRA without discussing the Unionist side or the others involved in NI is a bit like talking about Santa but not mentioning Christmas. Still feel free to continue with the lack of understanding, the condemnation and the blinkered attitude that resulted in years of violence. I suppose no one can argue that in taking the stance he did at least Martin McGuiness moved things forward and contributed to the years of peace, if it was left to some on gransnet we'd still have violence on all sides. Just a word of caution the situation is very unstable just now and blinkered attitudes and uncalled for criticism could tip the balance.

We can talk about him however we want to, as you seem determined to talk about Norman Tebbitt as you wish too and his innocent wife who was a victim of the IRA.

It is McGuinness who has died, that is why we are discussing him and not discussing anyone from the Unionist side.

'Complicated' does not justify murder, knee-capping, nail bombs etc.

RIP MM. I think he was a courageous man in many ways. Bitterness and hatred was at the heart of the Troubles and the future should be about forgiveness and compassion.

What previous British governments including Labour ones did or didn't do can't be altered so why go on about it. Martin McG was a terrorist turned peace politician. Only he knows his reasons, it's to be hoped they were good ones but who knows, that's between him and his maker, we can never categorically know. Both he and Iain Paisley (lets not forget him) including others did at last create peace in NI which God willing will last. Perhaps the end justifies the means, but you can't expect Norman Tebbit or others to see it that way. The fact of him being a conservative politician is actually neither here nor there and I can't quite understand why this was mentioned, or does this fact make it ok to cause him and his wife life changing injuries, a punishment for being a hated Tory?

DH's more cynical view was that McGuinness entered into the peace process to avoid being prosecuted for murder.

He died in his bed with his family around him - his victims were not given that chance, nor were some of them allowed to grow up and have families of their own.

Unfortunately I do not believe in hell, but he is dead and will turn to dust (as will we all).

If you don't mind, trisher, I'll talk about him in the context of the murdering thug that he was.

Then talk about him in the context of the conflict merlotgran not as if only the IRA committed acts of violence.
I don't like this idea that some people become saints- like Mandela but others must be castigated as violent criminals. People are complicated, the conflict was complicated and violent. Simple condemnations do nothing to explain or improve anything.