Group responsibility?

Luckygirl When British football fans go on the rampage in Europe, do you think that ordinary British people have a duty to condemn them publically?

From Twitter

Muslims being asked what we think re Manchester, as if any decent human would defend murdering kids, shows we are viewed as subhuman/"other"

Well luckygirl is happy a man has felt forced to be humiliated , I am not

I don't think that's fair.

Other groups are asked to give their views about atrocities committed by extreme members of that group - no one thinks of them as 'subhuman/other'. And we all know what journalists etc. are like.

I think it is fair, why should Muslims be singled out for opinions on the bombing

And Muslims are not a group .

But in the eyes of some people they ARE seen as a group, just as "Westerners" or "Christians" are seen by some extremist Jihadists as one group. The Jihadists don't even differentiate between Christians now and Christians at the time of the Crusades, who set off to free Jerusalem from them. Seeing people as identical clones leads to dehumanising them and turning them into mere cyphers to be hated and mown down like characters in a video game.

People like D. Trump and his wish for a blanket ban on all Muslims reinforce this polarisation. So do the exhortations of the ISIS leaders. That is why it is a good thing if the gulf between genuine followers of Islam and these berserker suicide bombers needs to be made clear by everyone who can.

Saying so does not mean anyone is "forced to defend innocent Muslims to please those who share your views" Rather, he has been forced to defend innocent Muslims by the actions of not-so-innocent pseudo-Muslims, which in the public eye reflect on all of the faith.

And you asked, ab whether you should have pointed out to those who blamed you for the burning of English-owned homes because you were Welsh that not all the Welsh condoned such actions. Well, yes, it might have been a good idea if you had done. It could have disabused them of their mistaken image of every Welshman/woman attacking the nearest English-owned home with a lighted torch.

The actions of the man who killed in Manchester yesterday do not reflect on all of the faith in my eyes

The world is a tough place - we ALL need to speak out against the wrongs, even more so when they are claiming justification from our values.

Many many people have spoken about the bombings - quite rightly - and that includes Muslims. Their desire to speak out is likely to be motivated by the fact that the ghastly people who do these things are doing it in their name - in the name of their faith. A grim scenario and a grim choice. they are not being "singled out" at all - except by the terrorists.

The man who spoke out is forced into humiliation - he is defending his position and good fro him.

We are all called upon to do things we do not want to do because the world and its inhabitants are imperfect - that does not mean we should not do it.

I spent a long career defending the rights of minorities. Believe me, they did not feel humiliated when I was walking alongside them in my fight for their rights. I encouraged them to see a wrong as a wrong and helped them to right it. Humiliation did not come in to it - facing up to realities did.

"not forced into humiliation"

I disagree Elegran, speaking to those type of English people would have been no different to anyone not English speaking to the EDL

Not in your opinion Luckygirl it was what you wanted, for me he was humiliated , I suppose easier for me to understand ,I am not English

Not in your eyes, ab because you are a true multiculturalist and liberal (with a small L before anyone thinks I am saying that you will be voting liberal on June 8th! You've been allocated arbitrarily to enough different parties lately.)
There are plenty of people around whose eyes will see only a cliche Islamist in every Muslim. They need it said to them again and again that there is a difference, and if a lot of Muslims say it as well as a lot of non-Muslims, perhaps it will sink in. The best defence against extremism is friendship and goodwill between ordinary people.

That there is a difference between a normal run-of-the-mill Muslim and a murderous multiple killer.

Elegran, thank you for the small L ?. Do you really believe it possible to change the views of a racist , a homophobic etc by these means ?

But Elegran, how can there be friendship and good will when people are seen as groups , it's the same as placing animals and birds into groups

On the DM on line there is a clip of an Immam praying in the central square in Manchester, with a very elderly Jewish lady, both paying their respects and both looking visibly very upset. He is comforting her, I believe they are both part of an inter religious group. It's very moving, I felt emotional watching it.

Read today about the Polish parents killed together waiting for their girls at the concert, now those poor children are orphans. So sad for all those young people who perished, including the beautiful 8 year old girl.

But that is what I am saying, ab Seeing all Muslims as one group is bad, being made aware that they are NOT all one group is good.

Constant dripping wears away stone. Constant exposure to the fact that the majority of Muslins are NOT jihadists could lessen suspicion and make it more likely that more people will dare to be friends with them. (Yes, I know that some people will never reach that state).

When people are faced with suspicion, they become defensive, and some progress from there to radicalisation. Nurturing the image of the average Muslim as a peaceloving individual (by anyone who can do so, including those peace-loving individuals themselves) could lessen those feelings of alienation.

That would surely cut down the number of radicalised suicide-bombers who have lived in this country?

BTW Annie, I was not replying to you but the poster before you - not that it matters now.

Can I ask a hypothetical question please.

If there was a known group of say catholic priests in a paedophile ring should the Pope not be asked to condemn them?

Nobody in their right mind would think ALL catholic priests are paedophiles but it is surely a duty/responsibility for the head of the catholic church to acknowledge that the deed has been carried out by those of his doctrine and say 'Not in my name'.

I have no concern over the aftermath of the Manchester bombing taking place there was not an immediate condemnation by Muslim Leaders/Imam's to be honest but I am concerned over the eternal problem of shutting down debate, that's how I see it at times.

I do feel there is a strong case for Muslim Leaders/Imam's to be vocal over terrorism and the connection to the Muslim community. That does not imply I hold ALL Muslims responsible but an acceptance that they are the holders of the power to engage with their community and are the only ones their community will hold in enough reverence to listen to, accept the word of.

There was a representative on the Daily Politics from the Quiliiam Foundation who more or less said what I feel . Perhaps Luckygirl would be interested to watch it as it more or less concurs with her view too, which has to my mind been twisted a tad by some posters into some kind of undertone of a racist comment, (more than one thread if I'm not mistaken), nothing is further from the truth as far as I see it. Apologies if I am mistaken

Given the topic/the OP is referring to, namely the terrorist bombing by a Muslim who holds an ideological , fanatical, radical belief of Islam (not deflecting to other stories!) ,
it is surely perfectly acceptable to not to be admonished, ill thought of, chastised for keeping to the facts in this particular occurrence to the Muslim faith. That is going to be the topic of conversation.

It appears to me that if we cannot talk honestly about the barbarism of the terrorist and attribute it to 'which ever' cause , whether it be political/religious etc. without some kind of permanent defense of the wider community/religeon then it does nothing more than to tip toe around around a serious problem.

It is an ideology that has responsibility, or rather the people holding to a particular ideology do. And that ideology (Wahabism if what I'm reading elsewhere is correct) does emanate from part of the global Muslim population because it comes, via extreme interpretations, from the Quran.

This does not mean in any way that all Muslims are guilty. Of course it doesn't and I'm sure most are prefectly decent people. Certainly the Muslims I have known all are.

But I think the repeated mantra that the appalling actions of a tiny minority of Muslims have "nothing to do with Islam" clouds the issue that it is warped interpretations of Islamic scripture that fuel the terrorists' behaviour, just as warped interpretations of the Bible fuelled Christian crusades and inquisitorial cruelty.

With regard to your last paragraph in the OP, pen, it would appear from available evidence (people claiming to be Muslim who then commit atrocities) that a small number of people brought up as Muslim are more susceptible to ISIS-style brainwashing in the same way that people brought up as Christians were susceptible to the killer crusading and iquisitorial mentalities that some Christians inflicted on the world in times past.

Saying this is not a criticism of the best parts of Islam or of all Muslims any more than it's a criticism of the best parts of Christianity or all Christians, but both most definitely had "something to do with" the respective atrocities committed, whether we like it or not, in the name of either religion.

But, no, I don't think 'normal' Muslims have a duty to speak louder than the rest of us about such things as what happened on Monday night. Everyone who is not an "evil loser" has an equal responsibility to stand up and be counted in favour of freedom and tolerance.

I should have said that being honest about religious/political terrorism goes hand in hand with making a strong point that there has to be an acceptance that not All people from a certain political/religious group are to be held to blame for the actions of the minority.

I believe very strongly that the Muslim community has to stand up and speak out against the extremists. There is still so much anti Muslim feeling. UKIP BNP some right wing papers are still peddling hate and using the extremists as their excuse. A few weeks ago I had someone tell me that all Muslims are terrorists and he is a well educated man! We still have a way to go before we all recognise that all faiths can have their extremists.