Is it too late for a U turn on Brexit or at least watering it down?

That's what I thought, GracesGran.

Here's another link about the EU.
Did you know it's the 200th anniversary of the bicycle?

www.indy100.com/article/eu-brexit-eurostat-uk-election-2017-theresa-may-conservative-dup-coalition-hung-parliament-7786196

No idea what a subtweet is.

I have to admit that passed me by Jen

Can we assume that "Brexit no longer means Brexit"

The Telegraph is written that it is aware of secret talks going on between Tory anf Lanour remainers. Apparently May is aware but done nothing about it?

What on earth is going on?

I don't know what is going on either. I know what I hope is going on. The majority of MP's themselves voted REMAIN. A few have "come out" and many more are hedging their bets. The collapse of UKIP support surely has to indicate that where the referendum to be rerun (that should not happen!) there would be a large majority for REMAIN. We are heading it would seem for a soft Brexit, in reality that would cost almost as much as membership of the EU with little or no say.

Pragmatic logic simply says we are better off in the EU than out of it. Within the EU we can fight our corner much better. We can trade more or less independently as the Germans have done. They are just better at making and selling things than we are and that is our fault though the UK is getting better at it.

Parliament if it chooses has the muscle to blow Brexit out of the water.

Posh boy Gove busy trying to spin a Hard Brexit and trying to convince us all that he is the greenest MP ever
R4

cinders

I havent felt so optimistic since the referendum.

cinders:
One of the things the Brexiteers did say during the referendum was that it didn't mean leaving the single market. Now since you can't cut off free movement and stay in the single market this was yet another lie, but lots of people believed them.
Of course we are better off in than out. We have great influence in the world through the EU, and great influence within the EU when we choose to use it.
This isn't a divorce, it is a separation of conjoined twins!

It's noticeable that our Bold Brexiteers have more or less left the forum since the result of the GE has been known.
Is it because they are absolutely confident that Brexit will happen and they can't be bothered to argue the toss with us any more?
Or is it because we Remainers are too leftwing for their liking so they've no interest in our political musings (I do know that they'll claim to have been bullied off)

Either way it's a shame because I really, really would like to know what they would do if Brexit were cancelled. I've asked twice on other threads and haven't had any response at all.

I've just heard John Redwood say that we're going to offer the EU a really good deal!

In denial?

Interesting article by Paul Mason

He is arguing that Brexit has been an unwanted gift to British Business. Even it its softest form it means 10 years of disruption, inflation, higher interest rates and an incalculable drain in the public purse. It disrupts the supply of Labour; it threatens to leave the U.K. as an economy without a market.

But it must be understood "that the British ruling elite are not the same entity as the business class. They have vastly differing interests.
The elite are quite detached from British business - they are in fact the money men who run hedge funds, property speculation and crooked deals.
They are responsible for turning the Tories from a party of liberal globalists to die-hard Brexiters.
This Hard Brexit will cause a permanent economic crises, permanent austerity and a permanent set of enemies.

The British people saw through it. What we have learned is that how easy it has been for networked, educated people to see through all the bullshit.
They have organised themselves into tactical voting websites and united around a new basic set of values once someone enunciates them with cheerfulness and goodwill as Corbyn did."

But it must be understood "that the British ruling elite are not the same entity as the business class. They have vastly differing interests.

I read that article whitewave and that phrase jumped out at me too.

One thing I am waiting for is the two other countries - as most think of the UK Parliament is also the English Parliament - to start using whatever power they can muster to insist they are involved in the Brexit negotiations. I surely must be cross party.

Oh dear it's beginning to look worse and worse!

Why can't we just go back to as we were before the referendum it really is such a mess.

Independent reports that Brussels are pushing ahead with plans to take over the London clearing house

Inflation up to 2.9%. Ordinary folks budgets being squeezed.

I suppose Brexiters still think it's worth it

Economy slowing down

I suppose Brexiters think it's worth it

Does anyone actually admit to being pro Brexit? You'd think they would all have melted away from shame!

I am not a "Bold Brexiteer" but on balance, after studying the options in detail, I did vote to leave. And I am still here on the forum (so far ). I was horrified by the referendum campaign, and its childish polarised scare-mongering declarations, so set about studying the views of erudite economists and others on each side of the argument. I was very saddened that the referendum campaign was not conducted in that way, with one leaflet to all homes providing summaries of the arguments on both sides and links to further information. The campaign was a complete disgrace that in no way furthered the best interests of the country and DC should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.

A brief summary of my reasoning is as follows:large conglomerations of countries (blocks) are more likely to get into large-scale world confrontations; we had never really been proper members - always arguing the toss about all the things we did not want (e.g. euro)- either we needed to be part of the club or not - the half-hearted arrangement was neither fish nor fowl and PMs returning empty-handed from Brussels was becoming a regular occurrence; the wastefulness and cumbersome processes of the EU were a concern - the fact that they decamp regularly at the cost of £millions for no purpose is a prime example - you could not find anyone who thought it was a good idea, but the processes did not exist to stop it; the encroachment of the EU in all areas of life had moved too far from the original (and laudable) concept of a common market - this mission creep seemed to have no end point; all countries need immigration and I welcome that, but all countries need to have some controls in place that suit their particular circumstances (and especially a small island)- it was clear that the perceived loss of control over this was causing bigotry to thrive and that something needed to happen to deal with that. Those are just a few of the aspects of my thinking. I have got used to being abused for what was a thoughtful and considered decision.

BUT - I have been appalled that the negotiations have been monopolised by one particular party and its views. It is not a party issue. The principle that all parties and shades of opinion should be taken into account in the discussions just seemed (and seems) to me to be the only sensible way forward; and when TM started her "Hard Brexit" and "bloody difficult woman" diatribes I was truly horrified. How dare she!

However, this somewhat shambolic GE does seem to have shaken the old bat up, and her more measured back benchers are saying she must consult widely and not bung the plans and negotiations into her handbag, lock it tight shut and dash off over the channel with them. John Major was very interesting on this subject on R4 today, and if this GE results in a more measured and adult approach to Brexit then that has to be a good thing.

Party politics has a lot to recommend it, particularly as it creates outlets for a wide spectrum of opinions and (to some degree) a built-in opposition to hold the government to account; but when it comes to Brexit, it has lead us into untold problems. Let us hope that something a bit more balanced might now prevail.

It is wrong to assume that all those who voted leave are ignorant, uneducated bigots - disagree with the decision by all means, but this disagreement needs to be entered into with respect on both sides.

I would slightly disagree with Mason, because the "business class" itself is split. Some are like Arron Banks, Peter Hargreaves and other insurance/hedge fund bods, who benefit from a less regulated market.

With some exceptions, the manufacturing "business class", including engineering, pharma, IT and research, are against Brexit, because the EU is essential to them.

I'm never quite sure who the "ruling elite" are supposed to be. Certainly, we now have a class of politician, who knows nothing about jobs outside politics (don't start me on my recently parachuted-in and elected MP ), but it seems that there's a battle going on between established power and Arron Banks and his merry gang, who are seeking to become the new elite.

I think that unless someone has the guts to stand up and say we must stop take a deep breath and think exactly what we are doing.

Brexiters are so hell bent on Brexiting regardless of what damage we are doing they are trying with every trick they can to steamroller us along without any questioning allowed

Thank you for arguing your case coherently luckygirl. I don't agree with your conclusions - or at least, my priorities are different - but it's food for thought and I respect your views.

dd Mason actually did distinguish between the elite -hedge fund, property speculators crooks etc. And business.

You seem to have considered your vote to leave in a thoughtful way, Luckygirl, but how bad would things have to become before you might revise your opinion and admit that you were misled?

Aargh! Sorry, I confess that I didn't read it. I wasn't at home, so using my phone and I'm not very nifty with it. Is it in the Graun?