Cliff Edge anyone?

Petra

A good deal of meat is bought these days in the form of ready prepared meals or manufactured 'products' such as chicken nuggets. There is also meat that is bought from fast food outlets.

While we may be able to maintain a personal boycott of chlorine washed chicken (and hormone filled beef), if we buy any processed chicken products we will have absolutely no way of knowing if it contains hygienically produced British chicken or chlorine washed US chicken.

Without having any actual figures, I would not be surprised if the sales of 'processed' chicken products don't by far exceed sales of unprocessed chicken whose provenance can be traced.

If I was undecided about leaving EU the animal welfare situation alone would persuade me of the folly of doing so. I heard it spelled out on the Today programme that conditions of food trading with America can be used as a bargaining chip for other things such as financial services. The professor who spoke said it akin to the repeal of the corn laws and would herald the "Mackdonaldization" of our culture when we are flooded with cheap food. Of course people will buy chlorinated chicken and hormone and antibiotic riddled meat because it will be cheap. Even if we do not buy it will we stop eating in restaurants where the origin of the food is uncertain? I feel it is inevitable that many farmers in this country will go out of business.

Don't forget the suffering of the animals.

Yes. Should have said that is my main consideration apart from the health and economics. Many people will become vegetarian I think, but we will probably have a similar situation with deregulation of chemical use on crops too!

The repeal of the corn laws? I thought the corn laws were designed to keep prices high and favour UK producers.

If you're buying cheap meat or processed food containing meat today it's probably battery farmed and fed antibiotics already even if it's raised in the UK.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/24/real-cost-of-roast-chicken-animal-welfare-farms

The best way to avoid any doubt is to source your meat from a reputable farm where the animals are free range, grass fed and organically bred. It is a win, win. Tasty meat, helping a small business and most of all animals treated with a degree of humanity.

Too expensive? Buy less meat eat more veg.

I think that people who are JAM, feeding a family and people who are time poor are not able to do that although, of course, we 'wealthy pensioners' may have both the time and the money to do that.

The Corn Laws were measures enforced in the United Kingdom between 1815 and 1846, which imposed restrictions and tariffs on imported grain. They were designed to keep grain prices high to favour domestic producers, and are considered examples of British mercantilism.
The Anti-Corn Law League was a successful political movement in Great Britain aimed at the abolition of the unpopular Corn Laws, which protected landowners' interests by levying taxes on imported wheat, thus raising the price of bread at a time when factory-owners were trying to cut wages.
The league's leader, Richard Cobden, was able to influence the prime minister, Sir Robert Peel. The failure of the Irish potato crop in 1845 persuaded Peel to support the repeal of all Corn Laws, which was achieved in 1846

Just a quick google, history was probably my shakiest subject and DH is not here to consult

So it was a form of protectionism.

At the moment a lot of chicken used in ready meals is, I believe, produced in Thailand and some in Brazil.

Yes I know jalima if you are strapped then there is of course the temptation to buy cheap, but you don't need to you can cut out meat very easily. In fact I eat meat every third day, so fish and veggie on the other days. Sourcing it isn't remotely time consuming. On line then delivered to your door easy peasy.

I agree ww. It's not difficult to buy food ethically. The more people buy, the easier it will become. Items like free range eggs are everywhere now because of public pressure. We need to vote for the food we want with our purses.

to add to Jalima's post about the Corn Laws, I seem to recall that a reason (not necessarily 'the' reason) for the tariffs on imported grain was overproduction. The effects of the Enclosure awards, the increasing farming efficiency and the Napoleonic/French wars (1893 - 1815) all supported increased production. At the end of the Napoleonic wars, when imports from Europe were available again, corn prices fell. As the economy was run (in as much as it was lightly 'run') mostly by and for the benefit of aristocratic landowners who made most of their money from land their instinct was to protect prices.

Ah thanks. I was never interested in History when I was at school, fascinating now though

So the government has said that leaving Brexit means we can have gold standard in animal welfare.

So why not legislate now?

More bad news, not. BMW is going to build the new electric Mini in Cowly, starting 2019. They obviously don't think we're falling off a cliff

I think there are already some farms that operate at above the legislation standard, I am not sure if we are able to overrule EU standards, even if we think 'our' standard is better.
I do understand why countries like the US, where food has a long journey potentially, will use techniques like chlorine washing. I was surprised that there are 100 deaths and 280,000 cases of Campylobacter poisoning each year in the UK.
I know the rules for preparing chicken, but it does seem that lots of people do not.

www.food.gov.uk/science/microbiology/campylobacterevidenceprogramme

That's good news petra. I'd love an electric Mini - such a cool car!

As we know the Americans are a litigious society. If this chlorine washing is so awful is it causing illness and worse, death? So why hasn't there been a class action against the use of it?
I'm not defending it, I would just like to know more.

We have to meet EU standards (and will continue to have to meet them if we want to export agricultural products to the EU) but there's nothing to say that we can't exceed them if we chose to.

Which makes things all a bit weird, really. To avoid EU regulations we'd have to stop trading altogether with EU countries. We surely don't want to do that, do we?

As I understand it the chlorine washing is to kill the bacteria which is spread by the way the poultry is raised and also the practises at the abattoirs and processing factories. They are not good and so the meat is washed in the chlorine to basically disinfect it. I assume that the people who have been affected at the processing plants have done so because there could be chlorine gas in some form - it may well be there are no easily identifiable effects from eating the meat but it is probably not good long term.

I can smell the chlorine in tap water and so always filter mine before using and I drink the bottled stuff.

The poor intensive conditions in which the fowls are raised ensure the spread of bacteria. Thus the use of chlorine.

Of course careful hygiene has always been necessary in the preparation of food, regardless of how it is produced. But food with added chemicals or drugs are for me the bottom end of the market both in quality, flavour and welfare and something I would always avoid.

So, I've had a look around and think these are useful to understand the issue with the chlorinated chicken.
We have chlorine in our tap water in the UK. It's a very low amount, around 0.5 parts per million. (0.5 mg/l or less)
Swimming pools try to have around 3.0 parts per million, over that and you'll get red eyes
According to the US National Chicken Council (an industry body, but the only place I could find the numbers) the chlorine wash is also around 3.0 parts per million.

www.nationalchickencouncil.org/chlorine-use-in-chicken-processing/

I couldn't find out how long the chickens were in the bath (I just got some really bad jokes when I googled it)
It helps me to come to an opinion about things when I have a comparison, so I thought this might be useful stuff to share.

Also, from the food.gov.uk link I posted earlier

A European Union baseline survey carried out in 2008, and published by European Food Safety Authority in March 2010, showed the UK estimated prevalence for campylobacter in broiler batches (caecal contents) was 75.3% and 86.3% in broiler carcasses (skin samples)

We're not eating 'clean' chicken at the moment, it's probably covered in bacteria. The US seems to reduce this by swirling their chickens around in a swimming pool.

I'll admit I'd prefer to buy my chicken without the chemicals and kill the bugs in the pan.

The engines for the minis are going to be made in Germany.

It's not unusual for parts to be made globally though in the car industry. I'm pleased that BMW has chosen to make an investment in the UK.

"Fox's trip, which is aimed at setting the stage for trade talks, has driven home to many in the UK that the country may have to compromise on food to secure a bilateral trade deal in the US."

Er - no. Rather not compromise on food safety.
Apparently Open Britain challenged him to eat a chlorinated chicken. He hasn't replied yet.