What should be done about Public Sector pay?

I agree with that gillybob. My DH is civil servant accountant and he grumbles that admin are paid well above what private sector pay lowest paid admin in his office about £20k for a bit of filing, photocopying, shredding and answering phone etc. but skilled staff e.g. accountants and engineers are paid below private sector. All staff do get contributions towards pensions though which is supposed to make up for lower salary. They used to get fantastic redundancy package but that is all gone, now it is miserly. They used to travel 1st class but now all but very highest grades must travel 2nd class; So cutbacks have definitely been made in public sector. Personally I don't see why it hurts them to travel 2nd class most other people do. It just shows how much money used to be wasted and some cutbacks were badly needed.

To include the top one or ten per cent in any group of averages when dealing with pay obviously skews the average, as does excluding them.
It depends on what you want to demonstrate. What matters is that you tell people what you are doing and why.
All collectors of statistics will show different amounts, as they do not start from the same base. What matters is that you know what you are comparing.

gg you can check the proportions of public sector workers yourself on the IFS report - it is small.
The base number was from full-time work - that's how the ONS report it.
Here's the original article
truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/truth-poverty-britain-much-worse-think/
Here's the link to the infographic they took the number from
www.equalitytrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/Income%20Inequality%20UK.pdf

If there's any truth in those figures and a more 'common income' for full-time work is £12,872 (and I cannot sort of believe that) it supports my view that public sector workers are overpaid.

That's how I got to that point.

That's what makes me think those numbers are wrong.

campaign.goingtowork.org.uk/petitions/theresa-may-get-out-of-the-way-and-let-public-servants-have-a-pay-rise

Those working in the public sector probably do deserve a pay cut then. It's looking like those 'low wage' LA jobs are actually representative salaries and teachers/nurses are raking it in.

You can't be serious, Primrose.

Are you really suggesting that £12,872 is 'raking it in'? And that pay levels should be decided on a race to the bottom?

I think the theory behind travelling first class (on the railways anyway) newnanny was that someone could do quite a lot of work which is not always possible if travelling 2nd class and possibly not even getting a seat.
Whether it is cost-effective or not I don't know.
These days it could be cheaper to fly if a large distance is involved.

There's something very Victorian about this discussion..

What, the first and steerage discussion?
I must say that I only ever got a steerage passage when I had to go to meetings

All those teachers and nurses raking it in -really? All those midwives working 13 hour shifts, all those firefighters running into burning buildings ? I can't believe I'm reading this. There is such inequality in this country. No one has mentioned professionals in the private sector- corporate lawyers, bankers, finance directors. Paid shedloads+ company cars+bonuses +index linked pensions. Sorry, the people driving round in Porsches in my neck of the woods aren't teachers or nurses.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't what Primrose meant, but we'll have to wait for her to come back to explain.

What? Read the thread before jumping to conclusions!

"Since 2008, just one in every forty jobs created is full-time. By 2014, this was the equivalent loss of nearly 700,000 full-time jobs.

In 2013, there were more working families living in poverty in the UK than non-working families for the first time since the birth of the welfare state. In fact, in that year (2013) alone there were 500,000 more families added to this over-stretched group.

According to an article in The Independent quoting the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, out of 26,400,000 UK households there were “6.7 million families with adults in employment who meet the worrying criteria of living in poverty compared with a combined 6.3 million of retired and unemployed families living in poverty.” "

Appalling statistics. Why are some people so complacent about poverty?

Primroses

I assume your What! is a response to our responses to this:

Those working in the public sector probably do deserve a pay cut then. It's looking like those 'low wage' LA jobs are actually representative salaries and teachers/nurses are raking it in.

Is it a race to the bottom? To bring the private sector down to the level of the public sector - or vice versa depending on your point of view? Surely nobody really believes pay should go down to make things more equal?

None of the teachers or nurses I know are "raking it in" - to be honest they are all quite poor. And these are the people teaching and caring for the ill, what does that say to values?

I have had a glass 2 glasses 3 glasses a bottle of wine so I'm staying out of it now.

suzied There is such inequality in this country. No one has mentioned professionals in the private sector- corporate lawyers, bankers, finance directors. Paid shedloads+ company cars+bonuses +index linked pensions

I absolutely agree with you - and I have mentioned it many, many times but very few people who rage against public service employees seem interested in addressing the absolutely fundamental observation you make. They would prefer to call those who put forward these opinions as either "envious" or "hypocritical".

The Equality Trust analysis found that FTSE 100 chief executives are now paid 165 times more than a nurse, 140 times more than a teacher, 132 times more than a police officer and 312 times more than a care worker.

From fullfact.org

...The trend in inequality at the very top has been different to the trend across the bulk of the population. Although income inequality has generally fallen, the share of income that goes to the very richest households has continued to rise, and that’s been reflected in the public interest about the incomes of the top 1%.

I'm not raging against public sector employees and I don't think anyone else is on the thread.

In which case, Primrose, would you explain what you meant in this statement.

Those working in the public sector probably do deserve a pay cut then. It's looking like those 'low wage' LA jobs are actually representative salaries and teachers/nurses are raking it in.

Don't care what anyone says but imo Teachers, nurses, police officers and firefighters are all quite well paid . And before anyone quotes house prices we don't all live in London ! It's the people at the bottom of the tree we should be concentrating on . Those on grade 1 and 2 . Having said that the people doing the more menial work in the private sector are also struggling at the bottom of the pile ( often more so on zero hours contracts etc) so perhaps the way forward to help these people is to take them out of taxation .

Maizie you did read the other things I've posted didn't you?

6 m people live in London so a lot of teachers, nurses and police needed.

I read Primrose's post as being non-literal - rather that the part about teachers'/nurses' pay was written in a cynical/sarcastic/ironic way (I struggle here for the correct word) and meant the opposite to what she said - and that this was based on a disbelief that:
If there's any truth in those figures and a more 'common income' for full-time work is £12,872 (and I cannot sort of believe that) it supports my view that public sector workers are overpaid.

Judging by my link about senior Fire chiefs managing to award themselves pay rises way above those of the 'rank and file' fire officers whose pay has been restricted, it could be partly true.
One rule for the chiefs, quite another for the people at the coalface so to speak.

And also supports the view that those at the top are earning unacceptable multiples of the pay of everyone else including qualified professionals - and not just in the private sector.

The way forward is to raise minimum pay to £10 an hour.
If you take more people out of tax, it means less money to spend on essential services, so less money in circulation.
We need to get building council houses again so more people have a place to call home, on which to spend their extra pay.
We need to stop differentiating up to the age of 25.
Those who work over 18 years of age need a living wage, too.
Age discrimination is supposed to be illegal. That should be at the bottom of the age range as well as at the top.