Venezuela

So what was Venezuela like before Chavez?

Venezuela key indicators.

And every possibility the next PM of this country wants to run this country as Castro,Chavez and Modura did/does.

Jen, the Economist didn't think it was anything special, simply on par with what was happening in the region (where other countries didn't have the oil revenue)
Perhaps the right question is why was the 'success' simply average, given the wealth of the natural resources.

Extreme poverty going from 23.4% to 8.5% nothing special?
Oh well. Whatever.
We'd probably be quite pleased with child poverty at 8.5% in this country now.
30% of Britain's children now classified as poor.

Seamus Milne is hardly neutral on Venezuela.

Setting aside the current problems in Venezuela I fail to see how the mildly socialist policies of the Labour Party are likely to result in a 'Venezuela' type situation in the UK.

Firstly, Britain has a mature and stable democracy which has survived other 'socialist' initiatives such as the creation of the NHS, nationalisation of key services and industries (rail, road transport, utilities etc; not to mention the Royal Mail which was run from its inception as a national service). Whereas Venezuela has only been a nominal 'democracy' since the late 1950s, having previously been controlled by a series of military dictatorships.

The British constitution, unwritten and imperfect as it may be, has developed over 300 years. Even contemporary attempts to circumvent it have proved to be difficult as it is based on the rule of law, upheld by an independent judiciary and the separation of legislative and executive power exercised through a sovereign parliament.

It would be very hard for a would be dictator to circumvent this system, unless they had the willing acquiescence of the greater part of the population ; a population, indeed, willing to resort to, or consent to, violence should the dictator's powers be threatened (one of the inherent dangers of populism and a very sound reason for supporting the principle of parliamentary democracy).

Venezuela is not a mature democracy in any sense.

Above all, Venezuela is subject to massive corruption; it's ranked among the most corrupt countries in the world. While we might be able to cite instances of corruption in Britain and other developed countries they are on nothing like the scale of Venezuelan corruption. It is reckoned that a huge part of their wealth from oil has disappeared as a result of corruption; far from being dissipated in spending on socialist 'public expenditure' it has disappeared into the pockets of members of the regime and their associates. Can anyone, in all honesty, see corruption on such an industrial scale happening in Britain? (Though, on reflection I think that we do tolerate a degree of Right Wing corruption that positively harms our economy, bankers bonuses, money going to tax havens, tax evasion by global companies etc)

In short, I think that thinking that Britain could become like Venezuela under Corbyn is quite unrealistic. I think that continuing to be run by neo-liberal policies, coupled with the shock of Brexit, is far more likely to produce a Venezuelan result..

And having read dj's last post on the Government Watch 2 thread I think that my last sentence above is not far wrong...

Will Corbyn ever be able to say that the terrible state of affairs going on in Venezuela is rotten and cease to give it his blessing?
Will Socialists in the UK do so as well...... I won't hold my breath.

This socialist will Roses. C?

Will the far left ? No.

The rise of Corbyn is so like the rise of Trump, frightening thought

and in wades Trump again,with we may take military action over Venezuela ,this eegit thinks he's playing war games on a computer.For heavens sake somebody rein him in !

If Venezuela is subject to massive corruption why does Corbyn heap praise on it

This has recently been submitted in post:-

' Above all, Venezuela is subject to massive corruption; it's ranked among the most corrupt countries in the world. While we might be able to cite instances of corruption in Britain and other developed countries they are on nothing like the scale of Venezuelan corruption. It is reckoned that a huge part of their wealth from oil has disappeared as a result of corruption; far from being dissipated in spending on socialist 'public expenditure' it has disappeared into the pockets of members of the regime and their associates. '

The 'regime' and their associates for years can only be Chavez and Moduro and that is why it is difficult to understand why the left praise so wholeheartedly the likes of Chavez and Moduro . They are literally feted, adored and it would appear some will never accept anything other than they are saintly.

The left , such as Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbot have lionized the likes of Castro/Chavez/Moduro as being bastions of what a Socialist Revolutionary Government looks like and should be aimed for . They have for years aspired , worked toward the United Kingdom to be governed in their likeness and this is evident from their rhetoric to the rallies they attend , the organizations they belong to. In other words they have wanted the same Socialist values here in the UK as Castro/Chavez/Moduro had/have in Cuba and Venezuela.

The silence from Corbyn et al since they gave their praise to Moduro on his election is both enlightening and most certainly not a surprise to many.

So how do you think Chavez managed to get extreme poverty down from 23.8% to 8.5% if all the oil money went on corruption?

So true POGS, and he will do it if he wins an election, the man is a danger with his communist beliefs .

Jen , if extreme poverty is down why are people killing and eating cats ?

"With oil prices low and the government's cash dwindling, price controls have become a huge problem. The state still subsidizes food far below normal prices to appease the poor. Maduro has printed money at breakneck speed, and the bolivar has plunged in value, wiping out jobs and income.

At the same time, Maduro's hostility to foreign business has created a corporate exodus. Pepsi (PEP), General Motors (GM)and United (UAL) are just some of the companies that have cut back or left entirely. Unemployment in Venezuela this year could reach 25%, according to the International Monetary Fund.

Inflation is only getting worse. In 2010, one American dollar was worth about eight bolivars. Today it's worth over 8,000 bolivars, according to the unofficial exchange rate, which many Venezuelans use because government rates are considered far overvalued. Prices could rise an astounding 2,000% next year.

To keep up, Maduro has raised the minimum wage three times this year. That has provided a little short-term relief to the poor, but experts say it creates long-term pain in the form of a worthless currency.

"The economy is really chaotic. It's totally collapsed. It's at the point of no return," says Alberto Ramos, an economist who heads Latin America research at Goldman Sachs.

Maduro blames his opponents for Venezuela's economic woes and says U.S. sanctions on Venezuelan leaders are proof the United States is waging an "economic war."

Regardless of where the blame lies, humanitarian misery has followed the economic plunge."

In the meantime, trump punishes Maduro with refusing to buy oil. Who is he punishing?
Not Maduro on his own, or the other members of his government. It's the ordinary people.

If you look hard enough you can find out that Venezuelans are eating humans.

When all else fails, denial or sarcasm

What a shame that such an interesting discussion about Venezuela was high jacked by political comments about the u.k.

America has history in South America.

I can remember almost in every decade that most have been interfered in by the USA particularly if the country looks to be socialist. It will not tolerate that under any circumstances, which has meant real hardship for folk in the past.

Blame Trump. Blame America in general. Blame anyone except the people who are supposed to be running the country. Whatever the US has done, you're condoning the response.

Jen, there has been no fabulous revolution for the poor in Venezuela. Check the wiki page for the Economy of Venezuela.

According to Venezuelan NGO PROVEA, by the end of 2015, there would be the same number of Venezuelans living in poverty as there was in 2000

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela

When you quote the Guardian numbers, you're distorting the truth, as extreme poverty went up when Chavez took power initially. The truth is less impressive.

So you reckon the 1% will help the poor, do you?

Note the date, end of 2015.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/06/venezuela-elite-hope-poor-abandon-chavez-legacy-election

Jen, you admired Castro now Maduro