Our country post Brexit

Well, after reading the post on this board I can't help but think that most of you think we will actually leave.

That is what whitewave wanted, Scorpio, but the Brexiteers wouldn't tell us what an idyllic life we were to expect post-brexit.

Perhaps you can start.

I don't think it's remainers that are doing this.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/09/gina-miller-afraid-to-leave-her-home-after-threats-of-acid-attacks

I've just read that; I'm appalled at what this country has come to. I guess people like that have always been here but brexit has given them permission to be open about it now they feel that so many other agree with them.

'That is what whitewave wanted, Scorpio, but the Brexiteers wouldn't tell us what an idyllic life we were to expect post-brexit'
..yes, I'm still looking forward to someone informing me of something good that has come about because of brexit. No one is stopping anyone from doing so; as has been said this thread was supposed to be for that. It isn't the fault of us remoaners if no one can come up with something optimistic bout it all .

And don't forget all Brexiters that criticise us. We are using the democratic process to argue our case against Brexit, just as you did before the referendum for 40 years.

I must admit I wonder which stone the sort of people who threaten Gina Miller crawled out from under. Democracy is a legal structure - not an emotional one - and she was prepared to back a legal challenge to ensure democracy was upheld.

I think the people sending such letters should get more than a 'cease and desist' from the police. Why do people believe it is OK to behave like that?

On the Today programme this morning, John Humphries interviewed a man called (I think) David Chapman, who is setting up a new centre party against Brexit, and claims he has many Conservative MPs and a couple of Cabinet Ministers interested, We couldn't find out much about it, because in the interest of 'balance' there was Jacob Rees Mogg there too, and he got most of the time to say how the referendum was a clear vote for Leave and we should all shut up and accept it. Also Humphries kept naming Ministers he thought might be the ones talked about and asking was it him or him.
Following on from the climate change debacle yesterday, I despair of getting anything fair from the Today programme.

I am turning more and more to other media outlets in order to get more informed and balanced information. I have totally given up on some programmes like Daily Politics. Newsnight isn't too bad. I think Evan Davis is moderate in his style, but so many now are more about the presenters egos than trying to get a reasoned discussion and development of arguments from whichever side.

I also think that some people are wheeled on because they are so excessive in their views that it is thought it makes for better intending/viewing.

And they just used Rees Mogg as the example of what they had talked about earlier, repeating his soundbite.

Horrible man, but that is beside the point. Why do they need the 'balance' when the piece is broadcast? If they broadcast it and then have someone who wants to put the other side the next day we could actually stop this 'I'm sorry we're out of time' nonsense and actually hear one point of view followed later or the next day by the other.

Rees-Mogg wouldn't under normal circumstances get a look in but the Tories are so short of politicians that can talk sense that they are resorting to someone from the Edwardian period in his outlook to pontificate

What do you think of this "new" party being talked about?

I'm not at all clear that there is space for it in the political spectrum, but undoubtedly there are people from the Tory/Labour and Liberal party who could work together on some areas.

yggdrasil

James Chapman was discussed on another thread but you might have missed it so:

He was political editor of the Daily Mail, then he worked for George Osborne as a 'special advisor'. when May sacked Osborne he got a job as 'chief of staff' to David Davis in the new Department for Exiting the EU

He said on twitter (which is where I encountered him on the day he started his 'new party' campaign) that although he had supported Remain he took the job in the new department. He said on twitter that, although he hadn't supported Leave, as it was the result he would do his bit towards trying to make it work. He said that after trying for a year in the department he had come to the conclusion that it would never work. Not only that, but it was the biggest catastrophe facing Britain since WW2.

He is to start writing a column in the Guardian in September (yup. These journalists have no morals - Daily Mail to Guardian without a qualm..) I am looking forward to it; I hope it is entirely candid.

On the question of a new party, I personally think it will get nowhere. Remember the SDP?

Aologies for rather incoherent section of previous post, I left it halfway through and didn't check what I'd already written when I came back to it

Oh I haven't read anything about it but I was part of the Chapman discussion
My excuse is that I have been busy administering to a sick GS.

Back up to speed soon I hope after today which is administering to a 99 year old Mum.
All go isn't it??!!

www.indy100.com/article/former-chief-of-staff-james-chapman-brexit-secretary-david-davis-rogue-twitter-eu-conservative-7887861

Chapman is really stirring it on twitter.

Seems the government is willing too use NI as a bargaining stick in the border argument with the South.

Sterling to reach parity with the euro next year.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-trade-deal-us-uk_uk_598b2bfce4b0d793738c0284?utm_hp_ref=uk

Trade deal with US looks bad, very bad.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017/08/11/brexit-clause-sue_n_17726104.html?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics&ir=UK+Politics

So much for democracy in the UK. Bring back control to the government and take it away from the people.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matt-carr/gina-miller_b_17716064.html?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics&ir=UK+Politics

If Brexit happens this will only get worse.

"Finding the public's view on what Brexit should look like has proven a tricky task for pollsters and politicians, as many of the technical issues and tradeoffs are not well understood. As an example, one poll showed 88% of the public supporting free trade with the EU post-Brexit, while 69% wanted customs checks at the border – a directly contradictory position, meaning at least 57% of respondents had said they supported both open and closed borders."

www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing?utm_term=.wyNvokgo2#.qsg97187a

It's all too complex for most of the electorate. Few people really seems to understand the differences between single market, EEA, customs union, and free trade (and all their implications). Even the politicians in many cases. And free movement seems to be a phrase banded about freely when it applies to Brits in Europe, but is interpreted very differently when it means any EU immigrant coming to the UK.

I can't claim to understand all the implications of free movement or free trade. And free border in Ireland? How does that work?

There's still a great deal of mis-information (is that a word?). If us Remainers are now asked whether we should Leave the EU we feel we can't say definitely not because it seems inevitable after the Referendum result. Only the Lib Dems are clearly still in favour of Remain although the vast majority of MPs of all parties supported Remain last year.

I would think that the free movement in Ireland works the same as the free movement between France and Spain - you just continue down the road and no passport check etc at all - or customs in either direction.

There is also the question of the Court of Human Rights which has nothing to do with the EU and was instigated by UK years ago and the EU Justice system for trade disputes etc. The whole thing is a nightmare for anyone to properly understand or sort out the implications. I think it is only people such as the Cleggs who have both worked for years in Brussels who totally understand the rules etc and of course neither are involved in the negotiations.

Yes I can see what could happen locally in Northern Ireland, but what happens between NI and the UK? Is there a border all round the island of Ireland?

How would exports from Northern Ireland to U.K. be treated? Much of Ireland's and NI's export trade is with the UK and lots more is via the UK for onward transit to other countries. Long complicated customs procedures and queues between mainland UK and one part of the UK?

Lots of questions here. So complicated!