Our country post Brexit

The treatment of Gina Miller is a disgrace. No-one should have to put up with abuse and threats like that.

There is a port in the south of Ireland -Rosslare- which has ferries at the moment to Cherbourg and at one time there were ferries to Roscoff so I suppose it would be possible to send freight that way to the EU etc.
If the goods came via UK presumably they would be customs checked unless they go back to that TIR system when the customs seal the truck at the port of departure and the seal is just checked as it goes on its journey till it reaches the destination country.

All very complicated and much to sort out. Of course Eire does a lot of trade with UK so that will need sorting too.

Gina Miller is a very brave woman who has stood firm in the face of outrageous attacks by the right wing tabloids and the people they inspire.

I wish that our elected politicians, most of whom know that that it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU, had her courage and stuck to their true beliefs.

Sadly so many of them are fearful of the backlash from Rupert Murdoch , the proprietors of the Daily Mail and Express and other unelected tax dodging billionaires who are the real power behind Brexit.

Have to agree Varian but don't feel very positive about it.

If you read about the survey results out in some of the press today they say even remain voters now want Brexit but that is not really correct. If you read the analysis it shows that many respondents did not understand the questions and in fact contradicted themselves several times over when the questions were put in a different way.
When asked did they now think we should leave or remain the majority still said remain. Not clear. It at all.

That's interesting Welshwife. Do you have a link or a google suggestion to see the analysis?

I have read a couple of reports from links on Twitter or Facebook but they go to newspaper reports - Express was the first one but then I came across of more detailed results - if I can find one will post a link.

Is it this link that I posted a couple of hours ago?

www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing?utm_term=.wyNvokgo2#.qsg97187a

It's quite a detailed analysis welshwife and gracesgran is that the survey you meant?

Thank you Welshwife. Mostly, thank you. I found the academic analysis in the buzzfeed report a bit muddled with the buzzfeed commentary. It would be good to see the original - no doubt it will surface in time. It seems a little suspect when the are talking about 'forcing' people to make a decision. In good research you should be able to leave something when you don't agree with is. What would happen if a piece of paper was blue and you were 'forced' to say if it was black or white?

No it isn't the one I saw - the one I read had sorted out the muddle and gave the relevant results to how questions were asked. It was dependent on answers given you had follow up questions particularly when it was clear there was contradiction in the answers given.

I agree gracesgran. As I said above, I think the questions asked in this research were too complex for most people to be able to give an informed answer.

The report about inequality in society

www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/inequality-ifs-report-getting-worse-bank-of-mum-and-dad-class-education-a7888606.html

Just found this article by David Milliband

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/12/david-miliband-tory-brexit-policy-chaotic-fightback-must-begin-at-once?CMP=share_btn_link

A hard hitting article welshwife. The EEA route for Brexit seems ideal (if we've got to leave at all) but I can't see TM, Fox, Davis and Boris agreeing with that.

Here is an article about the terrorist threat as we leave EU.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/12/britain-falling-behind-eu-terror-fight?CMP=share_btn_link

Again I ask this question re the EEA being proposed as 'the route to take'.

How can you be a member of the EEA which means you have to abide by the 4 Pillars/Freedoms , the ‘four pillars/ freedoms’ of the European Union ?

The 4 Pillars/Freedoms are the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders.

The Free Movement of People is the issue and the Labour Party and the Conservatives have said the Free Movement of People it will end.

The EU has stated we " cannot cherry pick" and the 4 Pillars/Freedoms are 'non negotiable".

Switzerland had a vote to reduce immigration recently but was told it had to 'toe the line' and accept the Free Movement of People. It did.

Unless the EU shifts it's position , totally unlikely, it is disingenuous for anybody , including Miliband et al , to say we can be a member of the EU/EFTA/EEA and stay in the Single Market.

You are either In or Out of the Single Market because commerce/trade is a poor looser to political dogma.

If commerce and trade lose out to political dogma, then we all lose. We lose jobs, we lose savings, we lose our pensions as the pound crashes. In hoc to USA, China and the Middle East for trade deals with unsavoury conditions. Chickens washed with chlorine, US owning huge swathes of our NHS. Britain ends up in poverty. For an impossible ideal.
Ok worst case scenario - but unless we are careful that's where it could lead.

The free movement of people has boundaries which the successive UK Govts have not implemented. You are supposed to be self sufficient as far as income goes or in employment. There is a minimum some EU countries impose before you are allowed to reside etc. If after three months you have no work and means of support you can be sent out of the country. There are also benefit checks in place which enable the country not to pay any till a person has contributed in some way - again the UK has CHOSEN not to implement this.
It would seem the reason for this non implementation has to do with not wanting to set up the proper but complicated immigration computer programmes. It has been convenient to blame the EU for these failures just as the EU has been unfairly used as a scapegoat over many things. Lots of the benefits of belonging will not be really apparent until they have gone.

Welshwife

I am interested to understand the points you have raised e.g

" If after three months you have no work and means of support you can be sent out of the country. There are also benefit checks in place which enable the country not to pay any till a person has contributed in some way - again the UK has CHOSEN not to implement this. ".

I only know of the European Union Commission information as follows.

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457&langId=en

Free Movement - EU nationals

Free movement of workers is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice. EU citizens are entitled to:

- look for a job in another EU country
- work there without needing a work permit
- reside there for that purpose
-stay there even after employment has finished
-enjoy equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax advantages

EU nationals may also have certain types of health & social security coverage transferred to the country in which they go to seek work (see coordination of social security systems).".

Can you provide further information as to your points as I am genuinely interested .

I read that the the EU is trying to persuade the U.K. To make it's position clear regarding security issues.

Mays insistence on leaving the ECJs jurisdiction means that we place ourselves outside of the various counter-terrorism tools as well as the EAW.

The salient point there is that it is AFTER work has finished - not before it has started. Once any citizen has worked and contributed to the system of the country they are residing in they are eligible for the benefits of that country. Here in France from what I have read and seen people say has happened to them - no contributions no benefits. These points are often mentioned in articles. It is slightly different for pensioners I believe but we have not needed to try the system.
If the reciprocal health care agreement does not continue with the U.K. and France we will be able to stay within the French system if we contribute 8% of income to their system or we will lose the right to the 70% care. 100% private insurance is very expensive.

The next time I see an article etc which gives more details of these rules etc I will post them to you or PM Pogs

I've had enough of this "will of the people " nonsense. I've never suggested that everyone who voted Leave is stupid, but there is no doubt that many were misled into believing the lies of the Leave propagandists and their billionaire backers.

As a result 37% of the electorate (about 25% of the population) voted Leave. Far too many of our politicians are so afraid of the brexit press that they feel they have to say "I respect the will of the people", and acquiesce in destroying our country. It was an advisory referendum and distorted by lies.

Just because someone has written a suicide note, they don't actually have to jump off a cliff, and neither should our country. Fortunately there are still some groups pointing out the folly of brexit. Here's one:-

www.facebook.com/FullEnglishBrexit/?hc_ref=ARRSUhl86AAyCbx8U1xAviz8Wc2sEOogMSgy1k3HnW8vSfLo_wXc06crgmVoRJEoXek&fref=nf

Quite agree varian. We should still make our voices heard to stop this folly. It's a shame that the main opposition politicians aren't being brave enough to speak out. It's the Emperor's new clothes scenario. Nobody will dare go against "the will of the people" even though they know it's going to be disastrous for Britain.