Jews and racism

I very much doubt there will be a transcript of the meeting when they banned all recording. Best not to have a record of that sort of 'free speech'.

I have no problem with people discussing the Holocaust and thanks for the link maryeliza, I stand corrected & always happy to defer to the facts!

gg It's in the Guardian, if you want a left wing report

"Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, has said the party will investigate how it gave a platform at a conference fringe event to a speaker who said people should be allowed to question whether the Holocaust happened."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/26/new-antisemitism-row-for-labour-over-fringe-speakers-holocaust-remarks-miko-peled

Thanks for reviving this subject, Primrose. It reminded me of something I intended to add to the thread.
2 weeks ago a major new piece of research was published which puts a different slant on the subjects of antisemitism and anti-Israelism. Here's a link:
www.jpr.org.uk/publication?id=9993
As well as finding that the large majority of GB residents harbour no anti-Jewish feelings, ('no antiSemitic ideas or views at at all) it finds that politically some far right tend to be anti-Jewish, some far-left, anti-Israel.
For religious groups, a high proportion of Muslims are both anti - J or I.

It's an interesting answer to the criticism being raised Primrose but the only 'quotes' about what actually was said still seem to be coming from the Guido Fawkes piece. What is said to have happened at the meeting only gets a very few lines the rest is a discussion piece in reaction to the furore caused by Guido Fawkes article, and all that has been drawn from it by other papers.

It seem you don't understand what I was saying Primrose as shown by the paragraph you quote. It is a standard holding message. It doesn't agree that anything was actually said. This is all just a witch-hunt. If, and we have very little evidence, things were said which should not be said then I have no doubt it will be dealt with at least as well as any of the other parties would.

Interesting tricia

I must say that criticising the Israeli government over its treatment of Palestine and Palestinians could not be remotely construed as being anti-semetic.

It would be the same as saying that criticism of any government over its treatment of another country is anti-Christian or Muslim etc. It is ridiculous.

For my part I feel very uneasy at the way Israel is behaving towards the Palestinians but I simply do not remotely associate it with Judaism. For me it is incidental.

It's also interesting who made the remarks. Miko Peled is an Israeli-American with a family background of Zionism. It seems extraordinary that someone who has such a pedigree cannot be allowed to discuss what is after all his race's history. Can we accuse someone who is of Jewish descent of being anti-semitic? Is it anti-semitic to forbid a Jew to discuss the Holocaust?
This is not the simple case of 'there are anti-semitics in the Labour Party' that some would like to pretend it is. It is much more complicated and arguably the only way to reach any solution is to talk about it.

I don't understand why a call to expel the Jewish Labour Movement from the party or asking to debate 'did the Holocaust happen, yes or no' is a criticism of Israel.

Perhaps gg you should ask why the left wing press don't attend these meetings - best to make sure there's no 'evidence' of these 'discussions' is my guess. One of the guests on the DP said to the guest from Guido 'you only went because you knew this would happen'. Good grief! They all know what's going on and they ignore it. It's a disgrace.

Primrose why would I do that. I am not a Labour Party member and currently just gather as much information as I can.

I am not sure I can be blamed for what a guest says on the daily politics either.

So what is going on Primrose65 would you like to express in your own words what you think is happening? What I see is a group of left wing people who are concerned for the rights of an oppressed minority, many of them are very young and idealistic. They were addressed by an Israeli American who wanted an open discussion. There seems to be no proof of anything else that was said part from one report. If one person at a meeting calls for something to be done and that is discussed it doesn't mean that everyone there was in favour of it.

primrose there are some huge assumptions you are making, without real knowledge.

Yes its possible for Jewish people, or those of Jewish descent to be antisemitic. I've known a number

Miko Peled is an Israeli American with a family background of Zionizm (trisher 26 september 13.48). As I understand it, Zionism is the support of the return of the Jewish people to the land of their origin and the development of that state. I'm happy to be corrected if my understanding is incorrect. What I do struggle with is that the term is always used in a derogatory manner. At the fringe meeting in question, I've read that Zionism was seen as Nazism.

That could explain why Ken Livingstone was given a cheer at that meeting then Iam64

I think one of the delegates made a good point, which was reported in The Guardian. He said antisemitism was the only form of bigotry where a common response was not to accept the complaint, but to question the motives of the complainant.

Was KL given a cheer at the meeting or was his name given a cheer? Or maybe neither

His name, I believe.

Interesting ambiguity - I had begun to think he was in a cupboard with BS

Whitewave

" It is worth mentioning that it was held in a very small venue, was on the outer fringes and not condoned by the Labour Party. It is unfortunate that it slipped in to the programme of events."

You have made further mention of this meeting requesting more detail.

As has been mentioned the fringe meeting was chaired by Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi.

I could be mistaken but I am of the belief she is the same person you mentioned on the ' Voting for Jeremy Corbyn - the political equivalent of buying a Harley Davidson ' thread. If I am correct she is the one you posted about saying :-

" Jewish lady speaking about Palestinian state - good stuff "

" Standing ovation for her".

Why am I of the belief it was Wimborne-Idrissi ? I was watching the Conference and looking at GN at the same time on monday .

The meeting was chaired by MP Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi and her own views are given in a 3 minute speech to the LP Conference here:
jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/naomi-wimborne-idrissi-addresses-labour.html

There it is again grannyactivist, the term zionist/zionism used in a derogatory way. I'm not ignoring Palestinians but I am questioning why it is that this term is seen as totally acceptable. I have many friends who are "friends of Israel", who share the concerns about Palestinians but are not bigoted, racist oppressors. It seems to me to be on a par with accusing all practicing Muslims of being jihadi's when they comment on the wars in the Middle East as the responsibility of the West.

I should think one in three of the population, generally, will think of leaving the UK if Corbyn's Labour party gets in.

loop you sound like Murdoch's Sun

pogs um ---yes?

It's going to feel very empty loopy!!

Good posts Iam64 as ever, your posts are fair comments,
In which you decide on 'rightness' and not if the political party concerned is your own or not.?

There should not be debate in any fringe political party as to if the holocaust 'actually happened' because we all know full well that it did!

Can I begin by saying that I have zero axe to grind and am really trying to get to grips with this. It would be helpful if any Jewish grans could put me right.

So my understanding is this.

A Zionist is someone who believes in a national homeland for Jewish people in what the bible describes as The Holy Land. I am not sure of the exact geographical area of this and how far it spreads.

So from that I understand that it is a project that is ongoing, suggesting that the existing state is not the exact area of the bible.

So it is almost like a lobby group?

Therefore not everyone of the Jewish faith belongs to this group
You could belong to this group even if you are not Jewish, because you believe in the cause?

So disagreeing with this lobby group cannot possibly make you racist because it is about geography not religion?

If it means that the goal of the Zionist is to take land from the Palestinians in the course of their eventual goal, I am extremely uncomfortable with it.

If I totally disagree with their aims and goals why does that make me an anti-Semite? I am happy that the Jewish people have their own state, but cannot see why they have a god given right to grab more land from other people.

Be happy to be put right on this