Jews and racism

I think it just about sums it up whitewave
Iam64 I used the term because his family were integral in the establishment of the state of Israel. "Peled grew up in Motza Illit to a prominent Zionist family; his grandfather, Avraham Katsnelson, signed Israel’s Declaration of Independence.[1][2] His father, Mattityahu Peled, fought in the 1948 war, and served as a general in the war of 1967; later, after the Israeli cabinet ignored his investigation of a 1967 alleged Israeli war crime, he became an advocate for an Israeli dialogue with the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)"-from Wiki
It is interesting that his father moved away from this and Miko himself has declared only a 1 state solution with equal voting rights for Israelis and Palestinians is the only real solution.
I do think these are the sorts of people who should be talking about the problem.

So is it accepted then that we can criticise the Israeli state for perceived incorrect behaviour without being considered racist?

whitewave, I know no one, no organisation that has a problem with criticism of some of the actions of the Israeli government. Was that question tongue in cheek?

I do have a problem with the use of the word Zionist in the derogatory way its so often used. The history says the Jewish people were driven from their homeland, Israel. Many Jews who survived the holocaust in Europe were motivated never again to be subject to pograms or attempts to wipe their race from the face of the earth.
I joined a guided walk in Manchester recently, when the term Zionist was used to criticise one of the Guardian journalists. Manchester has a large Jewish community. I can't imagine it's Muslim community being derided in the same kind of way.

lam64 wrote
"I can't imagine it's Muslim community being derided in the same kind of way."
And you know why - can't say it because it's racist. Though it seems to be acceptable to say eg President Assad is a cruel despot.
whitewave wrote
"So is it accepted then that we can criticise the Israeli state for perceived incorrect behaviour without being considered racist?"
That's the point about separating the criticism of a state and its leaders from that of a nation/race.
So with the UK it's ok to criticise May as a leader, but not to say eg ' English people are stupid/ insular' etc.
And the USA - we can criticise Trump without being accused of racism, but to say Americans are oversexed and over here is/was racist. As was said during WW2.

What fringe political party is debating whether the Holocaust happened?

I love your questions whitewave - that is much how I have understood it. I do hope someone in the know can give us some clarification.

That's exactly what I mean tricia

I may be wrong but I get the impression some people seem to suggest that it is anti-Semitic to criticise the Israeli government. What we must remember is that as far as I understand the Israeli government is secular (?). But even if it wasn't, it can't be protected from being moaned at if it behaves badly.

So now I'm stuck and perhaps you can enlighten me iam how can the term Zionism be used in a perjoritve way? Given that it appears no more than a sort of lobby group??

Isn't there a far right party in Europe that denies the Holocaust - mad as a box of frogs imo. Bit like creationism and flat earthers

It's always interesting to see how we never need these discussions about 'is it OK to criticise Saudi Arabia or is that Islamophobic'.

I don't think anyone has posted that it is anti-Semitic to criticise the Israeli government - post a link ww to the sort of thing you mean. There have been multiple posts saying it's not anti-Semitic.

Being stuck and in need of enlightenment is not a good place to be.

How about the Labour Party members chanting 'throw them out' referring to the Jewish Labour movement? Mad as a box of frogs or racist or anti-semitic bigots or people getting anti-Semitism confused with a discussion on Israeli policy?

primrose I have no idea if anyone has posted whether it is anti-Semitic to criticise Israel, i dont keep track of every post (no time) That isn't what I said.

I am also in no position to talk about what went on at the fringe of the Labour Party Conference as I wasn't there.

But what I am trying to do is separate between what is Zionism, the state of Israel and the Jewish faith. I am interested in the ways Zionism is used in a perjoritive way. Hoping someone can enlighten me.

Haven't two unions affiliated to the JLM, just yesterday?

Just to repeat. I want a more detailed explanation and I am not a Labour Party member. Just saying as people seem to like to categorise others.

Primrose you seem to have got your arguments backwards way on (not for the first time).

Primrose your post is spot on.?
Rather than relying on GN for information on Zionism if anybody wants a detailed answer then look it up, easy to do these days.

It's interesting that no one feels able to condemn the anti-Semitic chants.
Much easier to say
'I was talking about something else'
'You've got your arguments backwards'

What do you think about two unions affiliating to the JLM?

Grace'sGran - if you want to understand Zionism you need to read the history of the Jews going back several centuries. There's no easy answer.
And the same if you want to understand the conflicts within the various Arab tribes and nations.
In my view, it all stems from the 2 sons of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac. Who was the firstborn and what rights does each have?
I don't think the current govt. of Israel is dominantly Zionist. Israel is a tiny country, not much bigger than England, and feels constantly threatened by the surrounding powerful Arab countries. So feels the need to defend itself.

ps it's much smaller than England:
iris.org.il/sizemaps/britain.htm

It's not that we are not prepare to condemn them Primrose, I would be happy to do that. It is that we only have one, possibly biased, source as to whether it actually happened.

Thank you Tricia. We should know so much more about the rest of the world but I definitely have my limitations.

Thanks Tricia.

I'd be happy for you to keep goin.g tricia and I could learn more please

Oh Dear - I don't know where to start!
Trying to keep it short, I think it began when the Hebrews were dispersed from the Holy Land after Roman takeover after 70 ad. Some went north others went south.
Many years later, those who went north (Ashkenazim) began increasingly to be persecuted (why?).
Eventually, in the early19th century a movement was started, mostly among young Jews, determined to return to the land they thought of as their only real home.
At the same time there was the influx to the USA.
The 'homeland' wasn't called Israel or Palestine at that time. It was inhabited mainly by Arabs/Muslims, and a few Jews who had been there since the dispersal. That was the start of Zionism.
Those who had fled south (Sephardim) don't seem to have had so much persecution, and usually managed to live in peace with their Arab neighbours, and Muslims, after that religion developed around the 7th century.
It seems that the current troubles started in 1948 when the Holy Land became Israel. There was a terrible war between Jews and Arabs/Muslims.

Brilliant thanks for that

So Zionism began in the early part of the 20th century?

It was a movement that agitated for the return to what they saw as the land that rightly belonged to those following the Jewish faith?

Can anyone tell me why Israel refuses to allow Palestine as an independent state? What does Israel say its status is?

How many arabs/Palestinians were displaced as a result of the formation of Israel?

Big ask but I'm scribbling this down as it springs to mind. Don't bother to reply if you are cheesed off with my questions, but it is fascinating and something I've only ever skimmed over.

Actually re reading your post tricia I think Zionism started centuries ago. I can quite well look it up myself really. Must move my posteria!

If I understand it correctly, the Palestinians were offered homeland at the same time as the creation of Israel in 1948. Unfortunately the state of Israel was attacked by neighbouring Arab states almost before 'The ink had dried upon the negotiation paper' so to speak, so the creation of a state of Palestine had to be postponed and has been ever since for the never ending hostilities or presumably other reasons from an Israeli perspective.

You're right, nigglynellie.
Since then Israel has backed down and agreed to the 2 state solution a few times, but one of the Palestinian leaders has refused . Starting with Yasser Arafat.
It's basically a battle between the descendants of Ishmael and Isaac for the right to own the Holy Land. They hate eachother.
imo you can't avoid the religious angle in this, especially on the Palestinian side.
I can see their point too.

I can see both their points up to a point! To me two states seems so simple, and certainly necessary for both sides to live in harmony! Sadly it now seems beyond the realms of possibility, when at one time it seemed within reach. Treating Israel like a pariah state is not helpful or justified as clearly after centuries of appalling persecution culminating in the holocaust, Jewish people needed a safe haven that they could call home, equally Palestinian's need the same, so why on earth can't it happen?!!