Why are we leaving?

Along with many others in this country I didn't sign up to a federal Europe. Nowhere in the maastricht treaty did it say so! I signed up to an "economic relationship" nothing more, so that is why I and many others are leaving. Put it in perspective, Europe needs the UK more than we need it. The German car industry in particular. I am a believer in let's wait and see. No-one is an expert in this field, as it has never been done before!

Sarahhelenwhitney no actually we weren't "doing very nicely" before the EU we were the sick man of Europe we had the pound tied to the dollar because it was in such bad shape,and as for "great" Britain thats only the name of the island NOT the state the country was in....some folk are delusional .

Of course it will last, I can't imagine that such a closely woven continent or group of 27 countries will break apart.
We have all invested too much in the EU and after the UK has left, life will go on for us over here and we will continue to enjoy a decent standard of living with good medical care, and our children and grand children can travel where they want and our daughters (and sons) enjoy a decent maternity leave.
I hope all the time that Brexit will not go through but have little hope and the dreams of the 'Leave Gnetters' and their pie in the sky reckoning does not reassure me

* ck33 - "The EU27 understand it and that is why they (or most of them) are sticking with it warts and all. *

Another sweeping generalisation.

You discount the people on the street, the ones who live with the decisions made by the gravy-train bureaucrats, the ones, thousands of them, unanswerable to the ordinary mortal.

How many citizens of the UK (or citizens of the counties which are part of the EU ) can tell you the make up and structure of UK bureaucracy, committees and parliaments?

It's an almighty labyrinth of layer upon layer of civil servants doing gawd only knows what....and representing 28 countries. Which interests take priority? Personally I don't really give two hoots about Slovakian, Slovenian or Latvian internal/European affairs unless they affect us. That's not selfish - that's about there not being enough hours in the day.

How do such countries come to our aid? Anyone know how those 'comrades' assist us or are beneficial to us? It won't be financially, that's for sure.

It's the not knowing - at so many levels -which perturbs me and so many others, especially when we contribute so much to this institution.

We are all aware of the rise and rise of fascist groups throughout EU countries. Look at the German elections last week. That nationalism happens at street level because of dissatisfaction on the streets...amongst those who feel they have no voice. It happened in the USA.

Greece, Spain, Sweden, Germany, Poland, France...the big players are affected. Who knows what is happening in the Czech republic or Lithuania?

Do not try to pretend all is well in EU countries at grassroots levels when it patently is not.

It is true, Day6 that nobody can predict the future, but it is possible to make a reasoned judgement based on the available evidence. There is a wealth of evidence that tells us that Brexit is an extremely risky affair, with huge dangers ahead for trade, business industry and the economic wellbeing of the UK.
I don't think anyone would buy a house that they could not afford based on the fact that they could not predict the future. That would be feckless in the extreme, would it not?
I am always struck on these threads that people who support Brexit seem to be stuck in the argument of why they voted to leave the EU. Nobody seems prepared to talk about the future, about the virtues and disadvantages of WTO/EFTA /EEA, for example. Why is that?
How much economic pain are people prepared to accept for themselves and their children? How many price rises in basic commodities, how many redundancies, how many nurses lost to the NHS?
What are the practical strategies that will rebuild the economy?

Google the Coudenhove Kalergi Plan if you really want to know what EU is about. It is well on its way now!

The future of being in the EU looks as negative as it is now but getting worse. Do remainers think all of a sudden because we stay in things will get better? The status quo is not good enough and we have ended up with politicians that hide and work for the EU and their own self interest. Something had to give. We now have our own destiny in our hands. Already the government are looking at things that need doing which they wouldn't have before. Such as educating our own children to do the jobs we need instead taking cheap shortcut. No cost of training.

Thankyou Mamie for a sensible contribution to the thread. What's the point in any of us harking in about the past, we need to try to (at least) think about the future instead of shrugging our shoulders and saying, "who knows?".

I also feel that the UK, at the moment is not ready for Europe....(will it ever be ?). It has a tradition of "leadership" and competitiveness and does not do cooperation very well. The British are always comparing itself to the rest of the world and often inclined to believe stereotypes. You only to observe how often politicians in the UK use the phrase "best in the world" as being the only goal.
Being "good" is seen as "not good enough". Although the UK is a collection of nations, it seems to consider federalism as the ultimate evil....
The EU "migrants" (as we are now called...) are working hard in the NHS, in the building industries and also in education (as teachers or students in higher education, research etc...) to make this country as Great as it can be. Their motivation is needed by this country and I fear that it will find it impossible to recover after this.

ck33 The British are very good at cooperation but not very good at being ruled by unelected idiots in Brussels.

Try checking pre 1900 when all the leaders that ran what is now Germany wanted a united Europe under Germany of course. Then look at the November 1944 meeting at the Red House in Strasbourg where German leaders realising they were losing planned with their industrialists what they were going to do in Europe after the end of the war. Then tell me they didn't want a united Europe.

ck33 "the UK seemed to consider federalism as the ultimate evil"

Probably because it is the ultimate evil. Google the Coudenhove Kalergi Plan.

You elect your MEPs...(Nigel is one of them!). They have as much a say in what the "unelected idiots" are deciding as you have with your (unelected) PM.

You don't get it do you???? We just don't want it! ck33

If you do! You know what to do!

I arrived in this country in the 1970's before we joined the EU. We were known as the poor man of Europe. Being born and brought up in Sweden I was amazed how backward the Brits were in so many ways. We did, of course, then have control of our own affairs. My worry is that I can see us going back to where we were, i.e. the poor man of Europe. Is that the prize we are willing to pay?

Welshwife As you say, Churchill may have had the original idea but, in one of his speeches, he also said “We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”

Is it my "chip on my shoulder" or is Bambam putting me back in my place?

You have a chip on your shoulder! We will be fine, not only find but great when we leave. We will still have people coming over from Europe to work and people here already are welcome. We don't dislike Europeans we just want to choose our own destiny.

mamie - It is true, Day6 that nobody can predict the future, but it is possible to make a reasoned judgement based on the available evidence.

I agree mamie. Those who felt it best to leave the EU also had to weigh up the evidence before them, look at other sources, articles regarding globalism, trade, governance, border controls, democracy etc, and decide how to vote.

Remainers would have us believe they had a superior knowledge. They didn't. They preferred the status quo.

Not one of us had guarantees of anything regarding the future - whether we stayed in the EU or not.

Both ways was a gamble. We all got a vote.

It could be the best decision we have ever made. Who knows?

Greta, "we were known as the poor man of Europe"

Yes nearly 50 years ago. But Germany were given this label in the late 1990's because of its economic problems and then Germany slipped into recession in 2003
Italy was attributed this title in 2005
Portugal was given this nickname in 2009
Finland has been called this in 2015/16
Nearly every country in Europe has been labelled in this way.

So your worry about GB going back to 1970's is foundless.

Day6 It must be obvious to everyone that the UK will suffer financially for years as I said. It takes very little to tip an economy over the edge as a hard Brexit would.

Where are the new trade deals coming from? Not one overseas trade deal pursued seems to be coming to fruition and anyway finalising negotiations for new deals will take up to ten years.

Several Banks and car companies are planning to move their operations to mainland Europe so lots of jobs will be lost.

Are you planning to pick fruit and vegetables when European immigrants don't work here anymore?
Who will staff our hospitals and care homes?

Thanks for that video, ygg.
I bet most of those commenting on here have not looked at it, though.
It's a shame it wasn't available before the vote. It might have made more people pause.

How many people still think that efficient lightbulbs were imposed on us by the EU?

It would seem Germany are over 80 billion in the black. It works for them. We would want to stay in if it worked for us. We need more trade to make our pie we share bigger. It's not going to happen being just in the EU. We are addicted to importing from them. It's ridiculous to think we don't already pay a tariff. We have a subscription under another name. Catalonia want independence from Spain to think nation states would work well together in a federal Europe is not realistic. A good trading deal is all we need with regulations if enough.

So what are your views now on trade and border controls Day6?
How do you think, for example, border control will work outside the Customs Union? There is now, in practice, about a year to put in place new physical infrastructure, create new computer systems, recruit vast numbers of staff for customs officers and border control. How can anyone who has had experience of managing projects think that this can be done in the time?
How can the UK develop trade agreements to replace what it already has with the EU? How can food supplies be assured?
I don't claim superior knowledge but I do try to keep informed from all manner of sources (including leavers like Richard North) and nothing gives me any confidence in the ability of the UK government to manage a smooth transition.

Talking about preventing war: it was not the EEC(EC,EU) that has done that but NATO.
The UK has been paying in as has Germany but the majority have not paid in, just drawn out.
That unloved, unwanted Luxemburger wants The EU to control everything. If we stayed in our laws would no longer matter as either the ECJ or the EU would overrule them.
The EU does need to be reorganised (reconstituted even) but with 27 members that is very unlikely to happen. At some point when the veto is completely withdrawn one or more of the members will revolt. Getting 27 members to agree on everychange is a gamble too far.