EU wants us to pay 89 BILLION divorce charges.

Maryeliza54 If you read through the comments on here, particularly those from Paddyann, you will see that Lemongrove's comment was perfectly justified.
If all Remainers can do is call Leave voters bigotted morons, why should they explain themselves, why should they not object to that.
It is Remain voters who will not debate intellectually and politely which is a real shame because there is a debate to be had. You won't get it on newspaper sites as they just take a stance or on political sites for the same reason. It would be nice if this could be a place where people could just point out their views.
It is interesting though that the facts and figures rather than invective comes from the Leave side.
You do often get a bit of reasoned discussion on the Wright Stuff's facebook page when this topic comes up but discussion can't be very detailed on Facebook.
Why can we not just talk about it here without people repeating mantras or insults like your response to Lemongrove?

Well that takes the biscuit, using the death of a child as a reason for a vote made almost 18 months ago. It could also be argued that as a rich and prosperous country we should be paying more into the EU to take care of such people.
Nothing in this world is perfect. If you imagine any organisation is or can be then you are truly deluded.
I didn't ask for any reasons for voting leave, I asked for a vision of post Brexit Britain. I see
Food shortages and price rises
Unemployment as industry closes down.
A fall in exports as the EU countries are closed to us and new markets are too far away and transport costs too high to make them economically viable
The bankers leaving and financial institutions moving.
But at least we will be free of the EU bureaucracy!

In over six pages of debate, I can't find a single example of who it is we're supposed to be going to trade with if we cut ourselves off from the EU. People say it will be wonderful outside the EU, lots of new opportunities. But where?

As members of the EU we have had trading agreements with about 60% of the global economy. The USA is another 20% and it should be clear after the Bombardier affair that they won't be a pushover. The Americans have plenty of ideas about how they could make more money out of us - that would be the focus of any "easy" deal.

The remaining 20% of the world economy is mostly on the other side of the world, and already has tight links. They also have their own ideas about terms, such as India being reluctant to do a deal unless it makes it easier for Indians to come to the UK.

Obviously, there will always be some possibilities, but they simply don't match the opportunities in the EU. And what is being constantly ignored is that it isn't really about tariffs (although they can be very damaging). The point of the EU is that it is a single market, with uniform regulation.

It has often been observed that the USA has a huge advantage because it is an immense market with no regulatory barriers. The EU now matches it, but by leaving the EU we place ourselves outside that huge, uniform market. The cost of doing that is likely to dwarf both our current contributions and the "divorce" bill.

I did not 'use the death of a child'. That is an appalling comment. Are you not affected by it?
It was not the reason for my vote, but the treatment of refugees was part of it and that was the starkest example of that
I specifically said that nothing in this world is perfect so I do not fit into your courteous description of me as deluded.
Why do you leap straight to nastiness, which is exactly what this thread was about?
We can't have a precise vision of a post Brexit world because we have the Tories in charge so in or out things will not be good but we could be moving in the right direction with fairer trade with the rest of the world, treating all citizens of the world equally etc.
The bureaucracy is a current day fact. Your vision of the future is just that, a vision.
If you cannot respond without courtesy, please don't bother to do so.

* Jaycee* it’s not just about this thread

maryeliza54 The comments referred to are just in this thread and that is what I and I believe lemongrove were referring to. I have commented on the problems in trying to have a debate elsewhere but the discussion was about trying to debate it here.

It's strange how leavers continually put words into others mouths.
"*all Remainers can do is call Leave voters bigotted morons,"*
Where exactly?
"*It is Remain voters who will not debate intellectually"*
Really? Plenty of reasoned debate here
"* the facts and figures rather than invective comes from the Leave side."*
????accurate ones?...like the £350m a week for the NHS?..

I could add - leave voters here seem to go in for sweeping generalisations.

Let's face it leavers vision of post Brexit Britain that I have read on here is no Eastern European language should be spoken at the school gate and human rights should be done away with. That about sums it up.

Really disappointed at the tone this thread has developed. I voted leave, would do so again, and don't expect to be insulted or attacked as a result. In my view , The sooner we leave the EU, the better. And if the EU does not start behaving reasonably, Mrs May should walk away.

She should certainly have leaving without a deal as a credible option amongst her negotiating options.

Well done Lemongrove on your posts.

Jaycee5 you raised the subject of the 5 year old who died in Greece. Personally I fail to see what such a tragedy could have to do with our leaving the EU. There are few countries where the infrastructure could handle the number of refugees passing through Greece. Arguably we should be contributing more and taking more refugees ourselves, not walking away.Perhaps you could explain how leaving will help.
It doesn't really matter who is in charge during an economic crash.
At least I have a vision. How many Leavers have posted that they fully understood the reasons for leaving and what would happen? It seems that didn't. They were in fact jumping over the cliff edge blindfolded.

The EU only wants the UK to remain because it is a net contributor. As Dan Hannah, a Tory MEP, said on one of the politics shows this week- if a smaller, poorer country wanted to leave then the EU wouldn't be calculating how much they were owed so why should it be the other way round for the UK. Hardworking, law abiding EU citizens are welcome to stay if they wish to but they will need to abide by our laws.
The EU has no wish to discuss a free trade deal or otherwise because they know it will encourage other countries to leave too so we may as well go without a deal asap with no transitional period. Do your bit, everyone, and start buying British. Use it or lose it.

We should pay what we ate legally obliged to, not a penny more or less. We are currently paying EU pension but when we leave we should not pay future pensions, that should be up to the remaining members of EU who will be employing them. The EU are trying it on and needs to be told no. No trade deal hits them more than UK as they export more to us than we export to them.

We are one of only 4 net contributers. With 28 in club it is obvious 24 just take. We do get some money back in terms of grants etc. But instead of hand over our vast amounts of our money and then be given a tiny % back it makes sense to keep it all, decide and pay our own grants and use large amount money to pay off deficit, which means we pay less interest. We can do free trade deals with other countries who make up over 90% of world. Why this obsession with EU they are wasteful and bullies.

The pension payments are for UK citizens who have been working on behalf of the U.K. in Brussels. Once we leave they presumably will no longer be working there but will still be entitled to the pension rights which were part of their salary package - that is what the UK still needs to continue to pay.

Jaycee when Parliament voted on the bill for an Advisory referendum it did not become a binding one as soon as they had agreed an advisory one - that came later from Cameron.

Why would anyone believe Boris and the figures about payment he gives? I think he finds it difficult to tell the truth from fiction.

The EU are abiding by the rules in their negotiations - most of which were written by UK lawyers over the years. They are only asking that UK does the same.

EU workers are not undercutting UK workers - legally they have to be paid the same rate. Rogue employers are the ones charging high rates for lodgings etc which muddy the waters.

I work in academia - would love to hear from leavers how Brexit is going to benefit academia (clue: it won’t - it’s a disaster).

Once we have left EU we can set our own immigration targets that are fair to rest of world and won't be based in favour of EU citizens. If universities made all overseas students pay up front their would be less going back to EU and refusing to pay, leaving UK with a loan they will never repay.

An interesting opinion on UK productivity.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/productivity-demons-in-our-flawed-economy-are-coming-home-to-roost-87zj8pmt6

There

Newnanny can you lead us to the source about the EU students failing to pay please.

trisher. Yes I raised the sad situation of a child who died as a result of a failure to receive medical care whilst living in the EU. Should such an appalling situation be swept under the rug because referring to it will be callously described as 'using it'? I remember Lib Dems during the coalition complaining that the deaths of people committing suicide were being used by people who raised them during arguments against their vicious austerity agenda. It would be disgusting to ignore such things happening as a direct result of EU failures.
Yes we should be taking more refugees which we won't be doing whilst under a Tory government but we are a small island and I believe that we should give priority to refugees over other EU citizens but I would actually talking about the failures of EU bureaucracy despite the amount of it there is. They knew this crisis was growing and did not act, and then in a panicky way, until we have gone beyond crisis point.
If you are going to talk in cliched terms about jumping over cliffs, I really can't be bother. Your tone is completely unnecessary.

Welshwife I was talking about the vote after the referendum to invoke Article 50 not the vote to hold the referendum.
I have no idea why anyone would believe Boris and his figures or Boris on anything. The man is a fool and a charlatan. I doubt that many people did believe him. I am not sure why you ask me that question.
I said nothing about EU workers. You are arguing with me on points I have not made and against opinions that I do not hold.

And the research that goes on in universities? What will happen to that?

suzied Yes I was speaking in general terms - after explaining why I was not going to, again, give detailed explanations. Again, you argue in an impolite point scoring way. I can only see Leave voters here asking for a polite discussion and getting sniping superiority in response.
I am not going to go through the thread again or quote other sources where Remain voters simply rely on their assumption of their own superiority but, paddyann's comes to mind off the top of my head.

This thread had become unpleasant as was anticipated in the beginning so I am out.

I'm baffled by the idea of threatening the EU with walking away without a deal. The prospect of the UK being left with nothing but basic WTO terms of trade is much worse for the UK than for the EU. We already have a trade deficit, but we have a surplus in financial services. That is likely to be hit by leaving the EU, but hit worse by leaving with no deal. Likewise much other trade.

welshwife
The BBC reported that 70% of eu students dont repay their loans. That's a good enough source, isn't it?