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The Irish question

(530 Posts)
varian Sun 26-Nov-17 15:09:43

Some of us would like more than anything to remain in the EU, along with our Irish friends, but if we have to leave then at least we hope to remain in the single market and customs union.

If the extreme brexiteers have their way this will not happen. The Republic of Ireland will keep free movement of people, goods and services with the rest of the EU. We will not keep any of these freedoms, so what will happen at the Irish border?

mostlyharmless Tue 05-Dec-17 12:51:40

Well if the whole of the UK stays in the customs union or EEA, Northern Ireland would not be separated from UK by a border.
Scotland and London would be happy. Remain voters would be happy. Businesses on the whole would be happy.
A UK Customs union could be given a "bespoke" British sort of name as a compromise. ("Brit union?" )
The extreme Brexiteers would be unhappy. Can't May ignore them?

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 12:25:07

Typo...’do agree with their views’.

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 12:24:26

In that case suzied you must know that things are never one sided and simple with NI. The DUP has a lot of support it doesn’t operate in a vacuum.They are the largest Party in the power sharing ,with ten MP’s in Westminster.Therefore a lot of people in NI donagree with their views, even if you or I do not.

jura2 Tue 05-Dec-17 12:19:40

It is indeed - very very delicate - and I'm not sure balance can be found.

Any suggestions for the border? That will satisfy both the DUP and Sinn Fein. Anyone with close contact with NI and the Republic will know just how fragile the Good Friday agreement is, how many have never accepted it - and how it could so so easily just go 'booom' again. Project fear, I suppose, you will say.

suzied Tue 05-Dec-17 12:18:09

Who says I don’t understand the first thing about NI? Am in the process of getting an Irish passport, Have relatives in Ireland, DD studied in Queens University Belfast for 3 years at time of troubles, DS worked in Dublin, lots of regular visits to both sides of border . You’re not the only one who has connections. Thank you.

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 11:56:28

Maybe by London centric posters such as yourself suzied
Who don’t understand the first thing about NI.

jura it’s a delicate balancing act for the government.

jura2 Tue 05-Dec-17 11:50:16

Lemongrove : 'I have relatives both sides of the border, and I can tell you, Ireland is a complicated place, there are no easy answers as some posters seem to think.'

well I for one will agree with you here - which is why it is not a good idea to strir that nest of troubles in the way Brexit is doing now- for sure.

suzied Tue 05-Dec-17 11:34:12

Depth of feeling about being part of the UK - based on sectarianism and intolerance - can’t be ignored.

trisher Tue 05-Dec-17 11:11:38

The DUP would possibly prefer direct rule whilst their fellow conservatives are in power, be interesting to see what would happen with a Labour gov.

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 11:02:01

Who has given ‘throway remarks’ from family? hmm
Merely studying in a dry academic way, Irish problems does not give great insight either!
trisher yes, to continue power sharing there will have to be some leeway by both sides, but it was the demands of Sinn Fein this time that proved too much.In the end, the DUP may prefer direct rule from Westminster.
There is always an element of bluff in these things by both sides.

trisher Tue 05-Dec-17 10:55:13

And arguably the DUP have an equal list of requirements that Sinn Fein could not agree to. Or possibly not. They are of course the inheritors of a power monopoly based on religious belief that had dominated NI politics and denied civil rights to catholics for hundreds of years. So who should have 'backed down'?

GracesGranMK2 Tue 05-Dec-17 10:44:19

Anecdotal evidence from one family, on either or both sides of the border, will not necessarily give us better evidence that comes from someone who has studied the problem in depth. The issues of Ireland are so complex that throw away remarks drawn from relatives are hardly likely to help us get a view on the complexity of what is happening.

GracesGranMK2 Tue 05-Dec-17 10:37:49

It is not only the DUP who seem to have power that outweighs their numbers. All through the process to carry out a vote, which only said we would leave, a small number of extreme Brexiteers have been allowed to have more power than TM ever needed to give them.

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 10:36:15

I have relatives both sides of the border, and I can tell you, Ireland is a complicated place, there are no easy answers as some posters seem to think.

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 10:33:52

They have failed to agree power sharing because Sinn Fein had a whole list of things it wouldn’t be possible for the DUP to agree (all) and Sinn Fein wouldn’t back down on.

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 10:28:10

Depth of feeling about being a full part of the UK.

suzied Tue 05-Dec-17 10:23:41

“Depth of feeling” = hundreds of years of sectarianism, bigotry, intolerance, hatred. Should we be pandering to this?

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 10:11:13

No ww just studying what you call the Irish question, does not mean you understand the depth of feeling in NI.

mostlyharmless Tue 05-Dec-17 10:10:48

I can't pretend to have personal experience of The Troubles lemongrove, but I can't see that the DUP and Arlene Foster represent fully the views of Northern Ireland.

They did win ten out of eighteen seats in NI election (is the voting mainly on religious affiliation?) but 55% voted Remain and DUP are strongly Brexit. They have failed to agree power sharing to enable them to form a government in NI.

Their lack of compromise means that there is a risk of The Troubles returning to NI.

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 10:09:22

Remain or Leave....makes no difference to how people in NI feel about being a full part of the UK, which is the heart of the matter.

whitewave Tue 05-Dec-17 10:00:58

Foster does not have a mandate to speak for NI

whitewave Tue 05-Dec-17 10:00:15

As I studied the Irish question over a period of some years, I think I am sufficiently aware of the issues involved.

As an aside Foster’s constituency voted to remain.

Representative? I think not.

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 09:53:33

You have to understand all the history of ‘the troubles’ and realise there is more to this than merely politics.

lemongrove Tue 05-Dec-17 09:49:56

Tiny but very important ww or do you not care at all about NI perhaps?

whitewave Tue 05-Dec-17 09:45:07

Are you happy that the British MP was stopped in her tracks by a tiny representative if the U.K. lemon

It so then you have a very skewed idea of democracy