Interesting? Frightening?

Luckygirl personally I don't have a problem with the EU moving towards federalism, but I think it is a far from efficient organisation. I say this as someone who was involved with the EU in many capacities and it's very demoralising to find out something is delayed as a result of a deal done behind closed doors about another matter. All the countries feel the same way though which is why reform is underway.

You're right about the choices being with it or against it, which is no way to carry on. In an effort to appear fair we have the presidency regularly changing and as for moving between Brussels and Strasbourg twice a year... The member states know that this might have worked with a small number of members, but it's completely impractical with 28 plus the extra countries like Norway.

Now that the German elections are over it looks like the French and German are ready to continue the discussions over the EU reform project. As far as I can tell the fly in the ointment is the different positions of the EU Commission (especially Junker) and the EU Parliament.

I'm going to leave this thread now because all that's happening is the same old arguments have started.

Thank you, lemongrove!

About the travellers, there has been so much trouble with them recently that local MPs and council officers have called for a change to the Irish system. In Ireland you can't just bring your home and park it wherever you like, on school playing fields, parks, open spaces anywhere. It is a crime whereas with us, it's only a civil offence. Reason why a lot of them are here although they own property in Ireland!

We have freedom of religion in England - we fought our religious wars a few centuries ago. Many of the recent immigrants, however, don't allow anyone to leave the religion they brought with them.

Just read back through the thread. There are no rough sleepers in Clackmannanshire. Lucky Clackmannanshire! There are rough sleepers in Essex. the local homeless charity for which my DH does a bit of part-time volunteering, has at least 200 temporary beds every night, and there are still people without shelter on what is said to be the coldest night of the year. Some have drifted out from London. Some are ex-service. Some have various problems - marriage break-up, drug users/recoverers, mental health, you name it. There but for the grace of God...

Luckygirl , your post at 15.32 today.

I totally agree .

MaggieMay As I stated earlier there are only 2 known SDL members in the County and Yes a few other SDL people from elswhere in Scotland. There was also a small contingent from Scottish Dawn (from the photographs there appears to be 6 or 8 of them wearing balaclavas and sunglasses. BUT the vast majority at the rally were EDL who came by train or Coach from across the border.

Some posters have moved on to talk about the loss of cultural identity and I suppose that is what troubles me. In our partly industrial, partly rural area there has never been a big catholic/protestant problem and certainly not any inter racial conflict. It is not that we are insular but rather that we do not have a large population of any specific minority ethnic group nor any areas where there are more of 'them' than 'us'. Immigrants, refugees do integrate into the local community rapidly simply because they could not survive in isolation - the language of the playground is Scots and of the classroom is English, there are no specialist food markets, or fabric shops. Even the Chinese and Indian restaurants/take aways have menus geared to Scottish tastes rather than authentic cuisine. This is all very different from the situation in big cities and places like Bradford and YET the media would have us believe that racism and intolerence is rife here.

e.g. there was a spate (well 3 to be exact) of robberies in late opening corner shops which were deemed to have racist overtones. At one of the trials the shopkeeper disputed the racist elements. He stated that he had no objection to being called a 'Paki' as he was one and proud to be so. However, it was the addition of the word B*****d which upset him as it cast undeserved aspersions on his Mother's character. Then he went on to point out that as almost all the corner shops in the county were owned by families from Pakistan, if you were intent on robbing a late opening shop it would be hard to avoid there being a person of Pakistani ethnicity therein.

This is my experience of life in our part of Scotland where people from aw the airts are welcomed and rapidly see themselves as Polish Scots, Scots Asians, New Scots, Scots by adoption, or just Scots. I would hate to see a change where distrust and bad feeling develops between my friends and neighbours, fuelled by the blatant bigotry and prejudice which has come out from the shadows, become common currency ever since the Brexit Campaign started.

Would like to mention that there has been no trouble with Travelling People here since the Council set up a decent, well regulated permanent site for them, where they pay rent and usually have two vans so that they can leave one to hold their place when they go travelling in the other. Granny and the kids will stay there until the school holidays and then join their parents on the road. A simple and cost neutral solution to a years old problem.

Granny23, the local press reports to which you yourself link clearly state that the demonstrators were from the Scottish Defence League and Scottish Dawn. You are the only one claiming that EDL members were there. And as for there only being 2 SDL members in your county....how on earth would you know? I don't personally know any EDL members, but that doesn't mean there aren't any in Yorkshire.

I find this whole thread very worrying. The sole point of it seems to be to stir up animosity, if not xenophobia, and to blame "the English" for a situation that was an entirely Scottish problem. I for one am out.

I've just come back on this thread to support maggie. A post of mine is missing between my last 2 posts and it was about the presence of the EDL in Alloa. I was typing on the M6 at the time and didn't notice it hadn't been saved.

I couldn't find anything to show the EDL was at the SDL demonstration in Alloa and I am sure it would have been reported if it was represented (the photos show the National Front was there). Apparently the protesters were out numbered 4 to 1 by counter-protesters. I'm not convinced by the OP is not trying to stir up trouble and I regret posting at all on this thread.

So interesting to read sensible posts about multiculturalism and the EU. I was married to a Jamaican for 15 years and have two wonderful half cast children and four beautiful grandchildren. They all have good jobs and pay much tax. One is married to a lovely Polish girl he met before they joined the EU. Obviously the knee jerk reaction was to call old English people racist for wanting to leave the EU, but as things have progressed I think they are seeing a wider view of the world and Europe. Lovely to see this reflected in the thoughtful posts here. I voted leave purely on political grounds and not wanting my grandchildren to be blighted by the Euro and being conscripted into an army patrolling the Russian border and putting down our lovely Greek and Spanish friends we have holidayed with for years. We are over crowded and you only have to try to get anywhere on our roads or trains to see that, let alone the NHS collapsing under the strain. It is nothing to do with race, only numbers. The UK despite its bad press here for being a despotic colonialist nation, is still the 'go to' country, and we should be proud of that. However, we need to allow our new friends time to build a life and settle in before we just throw the doors open.

I have no intention of stirring up animosity between Scots and English People - my ire is entirely directed at these very small ultra right organisations who seem to have been empowered by issues raised during the Brexit Campaign. In particular, I am angry that their hateful message has raised its ugly head in my neck of the woods which has until recent years been mercifully free of this type of public hate speech. I am sure there are communities, throughout the UK, who are in a similar position, now encountering racism and fascism in their midst, where none existed before.

I only mentioned that many of the rabble that descended on our town were EDL rather than SDL members to illustrate that they were not local people concerned about local issues but rather band wagon jumpers taking advantage of any opportunity to voice their message. I would put Scottish Dawn in the same category (BTW since this happened back in March, Scottish Dawn has been banned as being a terrorist organisation)

I am mortified that my word is not taken as truth by fellow Gransnetters and I am accused of twisting the facts. How do I know that these thugs were EDL? 1) because they carried banners from EDL branches and 2 (the coaches they arrived in had been hired from English firms - it said so on the side. How do I know that there are only 2 publicly known SDL members in the County? Because there are only 2 members who spoke/write regularly to the local paper and only the same 2 known to be local people in the demo. If there are any other members in the area then they are keeping very quiet about it.

Here is a link I found via google which mentions both the EDL presence and the busses, though I hasten to add that I am in no way endorsing all the comments on that blog. athousandflowers.net/2017/03/12/scottish-defence-league-outnumbered-in-alloa/

I do not know how to copy and paste 2 links in the one post, so I will add another below, which points out how small the SDL is and how EDL members regularly come up to boost their numbers.

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scottish_Defence_League

It would help to know the full facts. Councils have a list of people waiting for council houses. When a house becomes vacant it is offered to the family at the top of the list. However, priority is given to those who are officially homeless. What happened in this case? Did the Syrians 'jump the queue', or were they classed as homeless? If they were given a house which others were more entitled to, then there is a genuine grievance which should be investigated. Marching through the streets shouting racist slogans doesn't generate sympathy.

The Orange Order is a Protestant organisation which is anti-Catholic. I can't see how this matter involved them.

Granny 23

Your OP title is ' Interesting? Frightening? '

I would say both but not for the reasons you would hope I may be agreeing with you upon.

Your OP states : " Having suffered a visit to our small local town in Central Scotland, from the EDL to protest that etc. " and you provide a link which as far as I can see mentions nothing about the protest or the EDL you mention but it's headline tells you what you want us to read and presumably the point you are trying to make. The headline :

'Brexit unleashed an English Nationalism that has damaged the Union with Scotland for good'

So I have to say from the start of reading this thread I thought you were connecting Brexit with the EDL and most certainly the connection was ' English ' Nationalism! It gave rise to those who continually want to put the English down as one poster says " we have been a xenophobic country for generations." followed by other usual words and phrases Empire/Jingoism/WW 11 /English worse than Scots etc.

You must have thought ' Oh good , job done '.

Then it became noted that your intention was nothing more than to make your opinion known what you feel about the English and when asked by Maggiemaybe for evidence of the EDL presence you failed to provide it and we were informed by your other link it was the SDL and Scottish Dawn no, mention of the EDL being present at the protest .

So I find it 'interesting' that you cannot call the SDL out for what it/they are but you refer to it / them as an EDL offshoot . They are Scottish whether you like it or not .

I am more than happy to be corrected but as far as I can see not one of your links mentions the EDL were present or reported to have travelled by road or rail although you insist this is the case and state :

"BUT the vast majority at the rally were EDL who came by train or Coach from across the border. "

Forgive me but if there were a vast majority of English speaking protesters holding EDL banners , I believe one of your links said there were 40 protesters? , would that not be reported in the links you have provided which make no mention of it. One link does say : " it ’s fair to say the pitiful turnout from the SDL, especially with so many clearly displaying flags from English groups, doesn’t suggest they’re going anywhere fast but it’s still concerning they’re organising at all.". Displaying an English Group Flag does not mean that group was present or being held by anybody from that group e.g English.

' Frightening ' is what I feel about the obvious dislike some posters display toward the English and in my opinion it did not start with Brexit it started at the time of the Scottish Referendum, we have plenty of threads to read back on and knowledge of that time fresh in our memories to know how heated that got at times.

Racism/xenophobia are words attributed rather oddly to only Brexit and the English by many but they most certainly do not belong to Brexit or the English they cover many topics /political persuasions and nations and to deny that or put ones head in the sand is pure denial but handy to continue with an individuals campaigns I suppose.

Thanks for that, Granny23. So it was actually Scottish Dawn and the SDL protesting, not the EDL?

Scots, not English people?

But used as anti-English propaganda by Scots - would that be by the Scottish Nationalists?

Ironic if so.

Good post Pogs. Occasionally threads appear where the underlying gist seems to imply that nationalism, racism and xenophobia are an exlusive preserve of the English. When that assertion is challenged, it usually triggers an aghast hands in the air faux protest from the OP, along the lines of "these are not my words, thoughts, I was merely quoting the words of whoever"......

Rosie The situation regarding the housing and support provided for the Syrian Refugees was this. No, Zero, Zilch houses were 'given' to refugees from the stock of Council Houses. Therefore, no local resident had to wait longer on the Housing List than they would have done without the Refugees. All the funding in respect of the refugees came direct from the UK government to the local Council. There was no extra expense falling on the Council Tax payers or Council reserves. This funding was used to renovate and upgrade old Council houses which were substandard and therefore unavailable to those on the Housing List and a few brand new private houses which the Developer could not sell, were purchased at a discount again using the funds provided. As a result the Council's Housing stock has increased permanently. If/when the Syrians move on or are able to return to Syria these houses will be available to families on the waiting list.

I would call this a win/win situation, but those with a particular far right agenda, have distorted the facts to create discord and animosity.

You also ask what the Orange Walk has to do with anything. From my standpoint it is another example of the relative peace and harmony of my local community being disrupted by people from 'elsewhere' whether that be the West of Scotland, NI, or England. There is little or no support for the Orange Lodge here and I can only guess at the motives of the hierarchy for choosing Alloa as the setting for this year's BIG March which has never been held hereabouts before. Press estimates of attendance of attendance varied from 8,000 to 11,000 marchers, including 60+ flute or accordian bands. We know where they came from because each band has its Lodge name on the big bass drum. As an aside shopkeepers in the town centre lost two days trading as a result of the shutdowns/road closures for these two events. It had been said that at least the pubs and offies would do a roaring trade but in the event they mainly closed for the day as their regular punters could not get to them.

I was not aware Scotland marched? I thought Northern Ireland were the only nation to have a silly ‘marching season’?!

Granny wasting your time,if they haven't lived here they wont/or dont want to understand the vile OO and its pretendy christianity...allied to the KKK.As far as most on here are concerned you and I are "seperatists" while they are "British Nationalists" one is wrong ...thats us ...the other is something they are fighting for with brexit and regaining a sovereignty they never lost and a worthy cause .Honestly ...give up ...they will never believe anything we say .Its all said to make the "english" look bad...however often we say we DONT HATE ENGLISH people , only WESTMINSTER they will still stick with the auld enemy thing rather than see the full picture.If countries as small and poor as Malta can gain independence and make a success of it why shouldn't we ...who have one of the richest countries in Europe ...not too wee ,too poor , or too stupid .A guid New Year when it comes and health ,happiness and prosperity for 2018

Are the vile OO Scottish then? Not English.


And what goes on with Celtic and Rangers?

Is this a peculiarly Scottish (and Irish) thing?

It is quite possible to be neither a separatist nor a British Nationalist. Most Scots support Scotland remaining in the United Kingdom. You could say we are unionists, but that tends sometimes to be interpreted as being supporters of the Conservative and Unionist Party. Many support the Liberal Democrats or the Labour Party. We can be patriotic and love our country without being nationalists of any sort.

You're right, I don't think we do understand such hatred

Yes I agree Jalima we are lucky not to experience religious sectarianism and all the hatred that goes with it. A catholic friend of mine, married to a Scottish protestant has on occasions been on the receiving end when she's accompanied her husband back to his home turf, Glasgow from his relatives so much so she doesn't bother going up there anymore, why woud you? It's hard to believe it still goes on, nobody gives a monkey's down here what denomination anyone is, or isn't

Thank goodness, as some of my family are Protestant, some RC and some atheist.

* Jalima* I think you've got it! Perhaps others can read your thoughts and understand MY upset when these Alien hateful cultures took over my town. Nothing to do with England/ Scotland animosity, everything to do with bigots, racists, sectarians flaunting their poison in the midst of decent people.

I know exactly what granny23 is saying and as I posted up-thread I am glad to live in my tolerant corner of Scotland.
OO has applied for permission to march here and has been turned down.

This sectarianism is not a Scotland-wide phenomenon but it does exist unfortunately. The vast majority of us simply do not want demonstrations of racism and bigotry on our doorsteps - whatever their source.

I'd like to add that, in every debate we've had involving independence granny23 has been the voice of reasoned, calm and rational argument. No ranting, no personal insults, no xenophobia. Just well-researched, fact-based premises.

Of course the majority here will understandably disagree with her philosophy but it should be possible to acknowledge that her position is rationally put and does not involve personal insults.

I agree with your last two paragraphs mcem
On the other hand paddyann seems the opposite, sadly.

You drew that comparison lemon. I didn't.
All posters may choose to voice their arguments in their own way don't you think?
Many a time I've read posts which don't chime with your arguments or style but as I was admiring granny23 's rational and non-personal approach to debate, I won't follow that line of thought.