Jeremy Paxman says 'no votes for pensioners'

I'm not sure that this constant harping on about education is helpful. It just serves to annoy people and make them less willing to listen to another point of view.

I also have some concerns about the implication that those who have not had access to higher education and are doing, or have done, quite modest jobs, are necessarily unable to think or analyse information. Perhaps I am being over-sensitive because I did not go to university and did a fairly mundane sort of job. Nevertheless, it strikes me as slightly insulting to many people and has led to a rather silly competition between various people on Gransnet in which they announce what class, and how many degrees, they have.

As I have said before, I voted to remain, though with strong misgivings. My husband voted to leave. Saying that he and others "should have known better" is, in my opinion, unnecessarily rude and divisive.

I am depressed by the amount of animosity that the result of this referendum has caused and continues to cause.

GracesGran
These academics are not 'visiting a forum' they have set up their own website called Briefings for Brexit. It's not a forum, it's information from a wide range of educated people.

Agreed- the animosity, as you call it- is because for many of us, the consequences are very serious- and will virtually 'change our lives' and not for the better - and because we are so concerned for the consequences for the future of our children and grandchildren - and the country we love and admire.

Personally, I would not wish to blame lack of education- and yet- the reasons for leaving many give are so totally non-sensical, it is hard not to be totally exasperated. So many have talked about stopping immigration from Muslim countries and Africa, refugees, etc- and just repeating some of the lies from Ukip and the gutter Press. (remember the poster with Farage and all the 'brown' people - or the awful video add about an older woman with a cough going to A&E before and after Brexit... and the disapperance of said brown faces, etc, etc).

"in which they announce what class, and how many degrees, they have." I haven't noticed that Eloethan. I have seen people on here competing to be seen as 'working class' if that's what you are referring to. I wonder how many have actually done declared their educational achievements though?

My point was that I don't feel defined by my education and haven't since I started my first job. Since then I have seen myself as defined by all manner of things, jobs, family, interests, etc. Why, when the education thing is just a statistic, do people feel it matters so much they need to be rude to those they define by a higher education - often with no knowledge of the facts one way or the other.

As for the Brexit splits, they were always there but have risen to he surface as nasty things often do. The UK seems almost tribal to me these days, young against old, rich against poor, less educated against educated, family been here for 1,000 years against those who are only approaching three quarters of a century, left against right, etc., etc. I cannot remember it being so obviously bad but I do think that Brexit, and the type of messages put out during the run up to it, is the reason this has been stirred up.

I knew that Petra. Why did you feel the need to tell me?

Surely this is a democratic country and it is one vote for everyone, regardless of age(18 and over), sex, status, education or religion. We cannot start restricting certain groups in some elections. In any case, many of the over 65s will have voted for an outcome that would be best for their children and grandchildren. Mt Paxman doesn’t draw his pension either. Methinks he has little in common with the majority of over 65s.

one vote for everyone - well that just does not work in normal elections- where the FPP system means that if you live in an area that does not represent your views- your vote just goes into the bin again, and again.

The UK is NOT a direct democracy- at all, never has been- and probably never will be. A referendum is totally alien to our voting and political system of Parliamentary Democracy ...

In any case, many of the over 65s will have voted for an outcome that would be best for their children and grandchildren

Can we qualify that please to "...an outcome that they thought would be best..."? For the obvious reason that no-one actually knew for certain...

Exactly right Abuelamia
And also exactly right Eloethan and there was a thread fairly recently where several posters were detailing their degrees and achievements in a lofty fashion as if it proved that they, as Remainers were in the best position to vote, and those lesser mortals ( 17 million) were not.
The truth is The nation was divided in many ways, and all professions from politicians to plumbers voted in different ways.
In any case, we are leaving the EU now, there is no going back and no second referendum, so why not concentrate on the outcome of that, and not always in a negative way either!
Probably this Paxo thread has run it’s course.?

In any case, many of the over 65s will have voted for an outcome that would be best for their children and grandchildren

Agree with the "that they thought would be best" Maizie as, fairly obviously, what outcomes people "thought" would be best were diametrically opposed, but all "thought they would be best". There is no higher moral ground in this.

here was a thread fairly recently where several posters were detailing their degrees and achievements in a lofty fashion as if it proved that they, as Remainers were in the best position to vote,

Perhaps you could find it and link us to it, lemon?

While your memory of it may be entirely accurate we do know that sometimes things aren't quite as 'remembered' or have been subjected to a different interpretation from the one the original poster intended.

Just in the interests of fairness, you understand?

.....and exactly right too GGM2 there is no moral high ground either way.Voters had a choice and they voted for what they all thought was the best outcome for the UK.
If only this could have been said on GN and everywhere else since June 2016.

I will do my darndest to find it MaizieD but I am obviously not the only one who remembers it.

Probably this Paxo thread has run it’s course.?

Jeez; you never can resist the Senior Prefect moment, can you Lemon ?

I did say ‘probably’ MaizieD
Are you an Aussie btw?

I think it has been said Lemons. Perhaps some memories are selective or you are confusing the idea that while I may not think a view is held on a lower moral basis than mine (and I don't in this instance) I can still believe it to be the wrong choice.

In any case, we are leaving the EU now, there is no going back and no second referendum

You may turn out to be right but you do not know that will happen any more than I do. We will only know when it happens. Until then I defend the right of those who choose, to oppose leaving, back a second referendum of their choosing and/or attempt to make the leaving as 'soft' as possible by crusading, struggling and putting forward the arguments they think are right.

If, in the end, it does happen, I will defend the right of those who choose, to try and reverse or soften the outcome after that event and for as long as that is what they wish to campaign for. That is democracy.

I may also think that Remaining is a wrong choice, come to that, just as you and others think that Leaving is a wrong choice.It was a choice, when all is said and done.

Since the PM and Corbyn have said they don’t want to see a second referendum, I think we can be fairly sure that there won’t be one.Both leaders ( for differing reasons) want to get on with Brexit.

Of course you may Lemons. That has never been in question.

I am glad you can feel sure of anything in politics at the moment but it is not for you to tell others that they should be equally sure. I am not part of the 'we' you so casually quote. Have you ever admitted to not "knowing" something?

I have said I don't like the underlying implication that only people who have had higher education can be considered to be "educated". Many of the Leavers also accepted this assumption, responding shrilly with details of their own academic and professional achievements.

Those supporting Brexit have been equally responsible for this sort of labelling, referring to remainers as "the liberal elite"/"the metropolitan elite".

What is the point of all this? It gets everybody's backs up and achieves nothing.

I thought UK was a democracy. All those entitled to vote can do so. Whatever the results, people have to accept it, whether they agree or disagree. Appears that each generation blames the previous one. It isn’t the older people’s fault that they bought their houses, worked their jobs or did whatever. Younger people would do exactly the same if they could. I would be more worried about things that affect everyone, economics, environment et al. Think Mt Paxman is losing his sharpness a bit. Assuming everythingvreported is absolutely true!

Good grief Gracesgran your post 21.58 yesterday sounds like Winston Churchills speech in ww2.

I thought UK was a democracy. All those entitled to vote can do so. Whatever the results, people have to accept it, whether they agree or disagree.

Please tell me when we last found we "*have to accept*" the view of the majority "MesMopTop".

It's because remainers just cannot accept the result. What they want is to keep on having votes until they get the result they want ( pretty much as Ireland was bullied ) and then not allowing another vote ever once they've got it.

"A democracy is not a democracy if you cannot change your mind."

David Davis.

The only reason Cameron allowed us a vote is because he thought he would win easily and to clip UKIPs wings. The EU's record on voting is not a good one once they've got the result they want you can be sure they won't allow another one. If you want an unelected commission making the laws that you live by then the EUs your baby if not then its not.