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Grans Moral Maze

(184 Posts)
whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 07:41:07

Question posed by radio 4

Are the values of the modern liberal secular society, and those of in particular secular religion irreconcilable?

Examples quoted

Iceland’s intention to ban circumcision
British religious schools will soon have the ability to accept only those of a particular faith
A Jewish sect who are demanding that they not teach that the world is no more than 6000 years old
Many of us are eating halal meat where the sufferer has its throat cut without any other humane intervention.

I’ll leave the question like that and join in if anyone is interested

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 10:21:04

I am surprised that circumcision “is done a lot” in USA. Does that mean that more non-Jewish boys are getting problems with the foreskin? I can’t think why.

MissAdventure Wed 21-Feb-18 10:24:41

I think there may be some evidence that removal does mean less chance of infection and so on. Just as removing all kinds of body parts would lessen risks, I suppose.

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 10:27:44

I think the female status in all religions is problematic. Women in Christianity and Judaism have still a fight to gain equality, and women are only worth at the most half of men in Islam.

The only protection that we as women have is the rule of law

nightowl Wed 21-Feb-18 10:28:19

whitewave, meat can be halal if the animal is stunned as long as the stunning only renders the animal unconscious but does doesn’t kill it. I don’t understand why the U.K. can’t follow similar laws to New Zealand with no exemptions for religious groups.

I don’t know whether the same applies to kosher meat but it seems people only get concerned about halal for some reason.

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 10:29:45

The question is though that is is done when there is no problem without the child’s consent.

99% of men get by quite happily with their foreskin intact, so I suspect this idea of high risk with regard infection is a myth.

nightowl Wed 21-Feb-18 10:31:25

For every boy who may or may not have been protected from a future hypothetical infection by having his foreskin removed, there may be many men who have suffered lifelong health complications from undergoing unnecessary surgery without anaesthetic or pain relief without their consent. I know which side my money’s on.

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 10:32:18

Stunning is controversial amongst Muslims though and many would not eat pre-stunned meat.

MissAdventure Wed 21-Feb-18 10:32:35

My younger, American friend told me that she would find it strange and offputting if a man wasn't circumcised and shaved, as its considered the 'norm' as far as she is concerned.

Oldwoman70 Wed 21-Feb-18 10:40:48

I am in favour of being tolerant of different faiths, however, many of these practices started during a much different time. Circumcision which is not deemed medically necessary is, as far as I am concerned, on a par with FGM and should be banned. Rather than label all meat where the animal has not been stunned I would rather the practice of killing without stunning is banned

janeainsworth Wed 21-Feb-18 10:48:59

Using evidence is all very well, assuming it is good quality evidence, and not distorted to fit political ends.
I would prefer that society was built on values.

Oopsadaisy12 Wed 21-Feb-18 10:54:05

Anniebach, out of all the population of Stamford Hill 35,000 Hasidic Jews and their families are living on benefits, not living the high life by any means, but not looking for Work.
Some homes are being built in Canvey Island and they are being built for those Jewish people who want to relocate, I believe by a Jewish Development Company, it is obviously going to be difficult as they live a very different life to the current population of Canvey Island.
I wouldnt imagine that all of the 35,000 will relocate.!

GillT57 Wed 21-Feb-18 11:08:01

To address another part of your discussion starter Whitewave, I am strongly against schools being able to have an admission policy of accepting pupils of one particular religion. It is only by being educated together, spending time together, that children will mix with others not of their faith , and many brave pioneers have proved the benefits of this in Northern Ireland. With few exceptions, the separation of children into faith schools is detrimental, particularly for girls. I am sure someone will come along to claim otherwise, but neither the Catholic church, Orthodox Jewish schools, Islamic schools are renowned for their advancement of female education. ALL children should attend non religious schools, whether state or independent, and any religious education deemed necessary by the family should be attended out of school hours. At my senior school, in a very Jewish area, the boys ( and some girls) attended Shul on Saturday mornings to prepare for their Barmitzvah, and I think this is how it should be, no parents should be able to deprive their child of the opportunity of a good education on religious grounds.

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 11:08:13

jane whose values?

janeainsworth Wed 21-Feb-18 11:16:45

ww this

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 11:22:51

Of course shared values exist, but they will never work unless based on the rule of law. The rule of law cannot work in the long run without being based on evidence.

lemongrove Wed 21-Feb-18 12:31:51

As MissAdventure says, it us more the norm in the US to have circumcision done early ( we have American friends)
It is to infections and thought to be easier for a boy to keep himself clean.

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 12:40:18

I am unclear why what happens in USA can be seen as a model for the rest of the world or indeed if that is not what you meant then I am not sure of your point.

janeainsworth Wed 21-Feb-18 13:38:27

Evidence-based practice is a 20th Century phenomenon, ww.
How do you think the rule of law managed before that?

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 13:40:11

Yes that is the point jane the question is about modern day secular liberal evidence based thought.

varian Wed 21-Feb-18 13:42:45

Perhaps we should start by being tolerant of all religions and philosophies unless their practices involve harm to others, especially children, or to society as a whole.

If we take sixteen to be the age of consent, or nominal adulthood, no-one under sixteen should be subjected to physical abuse, and this could include circumcision, piercings or tattoos.

Animal suffering should be controlled, or if possible eliminated.

lemongrove Wed 21-Feb-18 14:08:53

whitewave .....who said that the US should be held up as model? I was simply saying that circumcision is done a lot in the US ( non Jewish) for the reason of preventing boys from a lot of painful infections.My own son when young, had a lot of problems to do with this, and now his son has a lot too, so they are thinking of circumcision ( or rather the GP is.)

lemongrove Wed 21-Feb-18 14:13:21

Gill I agree with your post on secular education.

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 15:48:14

So that is my whole point. There is no evidence that circumcision is necessary unless there are medical reasons. All the men in our family have never had any problem whatsoever, neither am I aware of any of my friends who have had problems. Why on earth would we deem circumcision necessary? It isn’t.

BlueBelle Wed 21-Feb-18 16:00:53

Iceland is also trying to eliminate all Downs Syndrome by aborting the babies, it’s very rare now
How close to genetic engineering
I think the world would be a poorer place with no Downs and what next ...blind, deaf, Sure I ve heard this somewhere before shouldn’t we all be blonde haired and blue eyed ......Just saying

whitewave Wed 21-Feb-18 16:24:53

Are you comparing Iceland to the Third Reich bluebell ?

Bit of a stretch giving that it is one of the most equal societies in the world and has one of the happiest and contented populations.