The Labour Party

I would say, Fennal that all politicians who succeed understand the need to be pragmatic but, as you say, you do have to be careful not to betray your basic ethos in the process and many do.

Sorry, Grandad, just read your message.
I've just got back from a lovely day out with my family.
You'll appreciate the card I got from one of my sons - For the many but especially for Mum.

no resolution of any problem or conflict is obtained by talking to persons who agree with the position you hold, as resolution is found in talking to people who oppose the position you hold

I agree Grandad. However, that is exactly what Corbyn did, isn't it? Talk only to people he agreed with. By your own analysis, he did nothing to work towards a resolution.

I disagree 'Hamas has always held power in Gaza' to paraphrase. I thought Egypt had, the Palestinian Authority did after the Oslo Accord - it wasn't until 2005, when Israel withdrew from Gaza and Hamas declared war on the Palestinian Authority that they seized control. Hamas is just one player in Gaza. And Palestine is more than Gaza. So if we're talking about Corbyn and his friends in Hamas, where does that leave every other Palestinian who does not support them? Why does Jeremy always have to pick one side and support them?

He's not a peacemaker at all in my eyes.

Which eastern European countries do you think had fast track EU membership? What sort of support do you think Gorbachev should have been given by European governments?

Quote [Anniebach. 09/03/18 @ 10:08am

The four most powerful men in the Labour Party are heading for 70 years of age ,no I do not mean those aged 70 should be pensioned off.

Just these four are of the same time. No one of a different generation have any power in the running of the party
.....................................
Anniebach 09/03/18 @16:58

Corbyn is leader

McDonald after several attempts to stand for the leadership put Corbyn forward and being shadow chancellor and often speaks for Corbyn plus who felt powerful enough to stand on stage in the O2 and Call the majority of Labour M.P's - f*****g losers , this definately showed power

Lansman the big cheese in Momentum

McClusky union leader who has a desk in Labour H,Q,

Four men controlling the Labour Party] End Quote

Anniebach, with every respect you ask in your post on the 11/03/18 @ 16:29 pm on why it is being said that forum members should not respond to your posts. Therefore i have quoted above two posts you have made in this thread in regard to four persons controlling the Labour party. The question I and others asked was " The National Executive Council is the senior policy making body in the Labour party and the wider Labour movement. That council consists of 39 persons each with equal voting status. How then can four people control the Labour party under the above structure"

The above question you seem not to feel you wish to answer which demonstrates total disrespect to those of us who asked the question. In the foregoing you can see why forum members are stating that your posts should be ignored.

How then can four people control the Labour party under the above structure

Money.
Influence (Momentum)
Union block vote.

Want me to continue? You seem pretty naive when it comes to power and control Grandad.

How can four people have the union block vote?

By the way, McDonald is only 60.
If Momentum has influence, that consists of 70,000 members, not one person.
Who has the money? 11 Tory front bench MPs are millionnaires.

You can't count, primrose.

Unions have money Jen - you found all those millions in the Unite accounts, so you know it's there.
How many votes in the Unite block vote?
Momentum has 70,000 members who are told how to vote by Lansman.
Who has money. Some of it is in offshore tax havens, but it still counts.

I agree Grandad. However, that is exactly what Corbyn did, isn't it? Talk only to people he agreed with. By your own analysis, he did nothing to work towards a resolution.

Surely you are not so naïve as to believe one person has to talk to each side Primrose? I don't think any of the various governments that have been in power in the time Jeremy Corbyn has been an MP have ever appointed him Foreign Secretary - unless I missed that bit.

However, there will, I am quite sure, have been times when it has been very useful for someone whose actions could not harm governments could go and talk to those we generally didn't like being seen talking to.

Momentum has 70,000 members who are told how to vote by Lansman.

This is beginning to sound hysterical again. No one, in our democracy, can control that number of people. You are clutching at straws Primrose and this is moving to the "what about ... " type of argument that simply holds no water and is designed only to distract.

"Momentum has 70,000 members who are told how to vote by Lansman."
Well , by default, I seem to belong to Momentum and delete all their emails as they arrive. Never yet heard from Lansman.

Primrose in response to your post on the 11/03/18 @ 19:16. Therefore pardon me for not reproducing that text but I do not want this post to turn into a blog, and we would not want that would we (LOL)

in regard your main point you state that Jeremy Corbyn only talked to persons in the IRA, Hamas etc because he shared their views. In that I would have to respond, should that be the case then John Major and and Tony Blair began talks with the IRA because they shared the views and ambitions of that organisation, which clearly would be a nonsense.

In the above, Jeremy Corbyn in common with all who have followed him, talked to those organisations to bring about peace.

In regard to Hamas that organisation has held great influence in Gaza since many Palestinians arrived there (others where already there) following their losses on the creation of Israel.

It matters little who has held "official power" over the years, Hamas has always been the voice of the voice of the Palestinians, whether any nation has liked that or not, so those are the people that Corbyn choose to speak to. In that I would suggest that should a peace settlement in the Middle East ever come about, Hamas will play a leading role in making that settlement.

In regard to which previous Soviet Block countries got " fast track" to EU membership, then those who are members now would seem to be appropriate, Poland, Slovakia, Czech state etc. Should the EU have been so cooperative in regard to Russia then as I stated previously, we may have had a far different Russia than we have now.

Primrose, I have no idea what you mean about me finding all that money in the unite account.
Perhpas you can tell me what you mean.

Whatever, it's more than Annie's four seventy year olds.

Heading towards seventy is not seventy , they are not heading towards sixty.

More Whataboutery. This time what about the 70 year olds who aren't 60 year olds. This is nothing to do with the topic or the discussions - I wonder, then, why we are being led into that conversation?

Quote [Anniebach

Heading towards seventy is not seventy , they are not heading towards sixty.] END QUOTE.

And the three on the National Executive controling that Executive when all 39 persons on there have equal vote Status. How do they do that Anniebach ?

Two of the four are 60.
Lansman is 60 and McDonald is 60.

Hamas has always been the voice of the voice of the Palestinians

I think that Mahmoud Abbas would disagree with you on that! Do you realise that there's pretty much a civil war in Palestine between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas? Between secular nationalism and militant Islam?

It's impossible to take accurate polls for political support in Palestine, but the University of Gaza's department of political science is probably as good as it gets - they think Hamas has the support of about a third of Gaza. I don't know who the others support - I doubt very much it's Abbas.

Simply thinking Hamas is the voice of Palestine is totally wrong. There's more to Palestine than Gaza and more to Gaza than Hamas.

Regarding the IRA - There's no logic in what you've said. Just because Corbyn supported the IRA, it really doesn't mean every politician who spoke to them supported them!

Poland didn't join the EU until 2004 Grandad. Putin was already starting his 2nd term then. We're talking about the 80's/early 90's, when Poland was just establishing itself with Lech Walesa as president. How should the EU have cooperated with Russia? There was significant business investment from the US around then - first McDonalds opened in Moscow in '91 and they reinvested all the roubles they made in Russia back into Russia for years and years. The EU is Russia's largest trading partner and I remember Berlusconi going on about Russia joining the EU years ago.
What was missing? How would Russia be different?

Crikey, I've written an essay. Apologies all.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/11/scottish-labour-conference-backs-corbyn-brexit-vote-unity-motion

Regarding the IRA - There's no logic in what you've said. Just because Corbyn supported the IRA, it really doesn't mean every politician who spoke to them supported them!

I'm now confused about whether or not I am a really evil person like Corbyn. While I totally abhorred the violence from both sides in the 'Troubles' I had every sympathy with those who wanted a United Ireland. Sympathising with the aims of the republicans doesn't automatically mean condoning their methods.

Why is everyone being so black and white about this?

I'll join you, Maizie.
Corbyn has always said he condemned the violence from both sides, but that wasn't good enough.

No, that has not always been his position at all. Can you find any evidence of him condemning the violence from both sides before 28 July 2005 when the IRA ended their armed campaign? Even within 5 years after that?
Post a link if you can - I've tried to find them and cannot - prove me wrong, Jen.

At the height of the troubles, he was a vocal supporter. He spoke at official republican commemorations to honour IRA terrorists - 'soldiers of the IRA'. Not once, for 7 years running between '86 & '92. As well as all the other stuff he did that's not disputed by anyone, like inviting them to parliament after the Brighton bomb.

That is not condemning the violence from both sides.

His language only changed as far as I can see when he became the leader of the LP.
He started out saying "I condemn what was done by the British Army as well as the other sides".
We've all heard the painful interviews where he's asked 'but do you condemn the IRA' and he hangs up, or it just goes silent. That was 2015.

Two of the four are 60. Lansman is 60 and McDonald is 60

Trouble is, they all look so pale and stale.
Even the 'how old do I look' software thinks they're older.
(photo from the Indy today)

I hope 65 is not your age, primrose, as Annie will think you are approaching 70, and the software will think you look old for your age.

Heading for seventy , even Corbyn can't manage to head for sixty again.

The Ministry of Truth has arrived. Well done Annie and Primrose.