Corbyn's Elasticity

No Primrose I was not making attacks on you and I had looked up the IHRA before I posted.

I'm feeling quite flat and emotionally challenged by many of the comments on this thread that seem to justify anti semitism. There's a reference to some people becoming confused about criticism of the actions of the Israeli government over Palestine and anti semitism.
Primrose, many thanks for your comments. I was losing the will to live. How anyone can continue to attempt to deny that the cartoon about Bankers wasn't anti semitic I just don't know. Yes, not every individual was Jewish but it was so reminiscent of the Nazi propaganda that surely anyone who isn't anti semitic would find it offensive.

Is anyone trying to justify anti-Semitism Iam. I certainly am not and I have not seen anyone who is. Why not tell us which remarks make you feel this way so we can discuss them rather than just throwing out a criticism?

No point GG, it just feels like banging the head on the wall. I said clearly that if anyone doesn't see the antisemitism in the cartoon, I genuinely don't know. Feel lost. I give up. Carry on folks, stick with your positions and never ever consider you may have it wrong on this occasion.

I refuse to get into the art debate again most people know my views. If you don't read the other threads.
The people who really annoy me are those who throw accusations of anti-semitism about but refuse to examine any of the contributory factors at all. Of course it's wrong, but the only way it can ever be eradicated is by looking at the causes, identifying the basis for it and providing real information and education to change minds. Throwing up your hands in horror isn't really any sort of solution.

I am not surprised you have read the Labour manifesto, but a lot of others on here haven't or haven't actually listened to what Labour has been saying.
I think I've posted a link to it once, if not twice.

Christine Shawcroft has quit the NEC. Replaced by Eddie Izzard.

Izzard is a Corbynsceptic but he came fourth so ?

You are not the only one feeling you are banging your head against a wall Iam; I imagine we all do. Whether or not all the men were Jewish is really not the point.

Why did the picture have to be destroyed? It didn't portray anything illegal, although if the IHRA have their way, it would be. It may be an insult to some people's religion or race but so was the cartoon about Mohammed to some. I didn't like the cartoon; I thought is was provocative but they still had the right to publish it and all around the world we had people standing up for their right to do that with the "Je suis Charlie" movement. What, please tell me, is the difference. I don't want anyone to feel insulted but neither do I want us to be under laws that say we may not paint pictures or draw cartoons which other find insulting. People at Charlie Hebdo lost their lives fighting for that sort of freedom of speech and of art.

I imagine each of us may be "wrong" over some of this but while you are telling others they are, in this very complicated discussion, which is all about living with free speech or the suppression of it, why not think you may be too or simply that we have not yet worked out a way through the difficulties of a multi-faith, multi-ethnic world and that we are all just trying to do that.

‘Corbyn is at a disadvantage because he is trying to stay honerable to his beliefs? ‘Are you saying he is the only politician to be believed yydrasil?

trisher almost my entire town would vote Labour no matter who was in power . The reason being they’re like sheep to the slaughter . Hardly anyone in well paid or secure work , council tax at the highest rate ( but hell they don’t pay) oldies who live “back in the day” when they were down the mines and still blame Maggie for the bad weather . The young leaving in droves .

What is a ‘contributory factor’ to anti semitism

I feel that Jeremy Corbyn has been very true to his belief in justice for the Palestinian people. However, in support for that cause he has confused the outright Anti-semitism preached by a few to a sad connection and perversion of the very complex middle east conflict, which is totally incorrect.

Corbyn has always been a person with with unshakable belief and evidence for that can be found in regard to the number of occasions that he has rebelled against is own party in the House of Commons. Those actions have often in the past cost him dearly in his political career. However, the 2008 banking crisis and the Iraqi war brought home to the vast majority in the wider Labour movement of the need for drastic change, which brought Jeremy Corbyn to the fore.

In the above may be found the basis of the present problems in the Labour movement, especially within the Parliamentary Labour party. In that Corbyn has spent many years in parliament and the "Westminster Bubble" and may have lost everyday touch with the much harsher wider Labour movement where not all are as principled as he is.

In the last few days I believe that some key figures in that wider movement have been weakening in their support of Corbyn, strengthened by the election of persons with strong trade union backgrounds to key positions in the party. In that the trade union wing of the movement may now see a chance to bring one of their own into a position of leadership of the wider Labour movement and the Parliamentary party.

However, whatever happens to Jeremy Corbyn the party will not be returning to the days and policies of Blair, Brown and Milliband for in a much larger and changed party those days are long gone.

However, whatever happens to Jeremy Corbyn the party will not be returning to the days and policies of Blair, Brown and Milliband for in a much larger and changed party those days are long gone.
By pretending to 'take the party back to its roots' they are attempting to take it much further back in time - a time which would be unrecognisable to most people in the country today. It wasn't a 'golden time' as some would have it - it was poor and life for the majority was hard.

We cannot go back - we need to progress and keep up with the changing times; there may be much to put right but going back in time to an imagined golden era is not the right way to go about it.

I suppose the filth The Sunday Times has exposed will be dismissed by the Corbynites.

Sir David Garrard has left the party,

news.sky.com/story/top-labour-donor-sir-david-garrard-quits-party-over-anti-semitism-row-11312352

Headline from the Mail on Sunday.
Labour leader faces revolt from female MPs backed by Harriet Hartman over claims party failed to tackle "wife beating" MP.
Jess Philips has written to Corbyn.
Maybe Harriet will be the person to bring him down? She was/is very bitter about not getting the leadership.

From that link

According to its report, more than 2,000 racist, anti-Semitic, misogynist, violent and abusive messages were uncovered by working with whistleblowers who were able to gain access to the restricted membership groups.

A Labour source said the sites regularly received hundreds of postings every day, most of which were perfectly innocent messages about party policies or events.

The source added that many of the staff concerned were either no longer active on Facebook or were unaware they were members of the groups and had not seen the content highlighted by the paper.

"These groups are not run by the Labour Party or officially connected to the party in any way," a party spokesman said.

Only "more than 2000", on Facebook? Including all sorts of abusive messages. Doesn't sound like a massive problem to me, especially since it only counts messages, not the number of actual posters.

Annie
I liked the poster in that link: Corbyn is the pocket.

Quote [Jalima1108
By pretending to 'take the party back to its roots' they are attempting to take it much further back in time - a time which would be unrecognisable to most people in the country today. It wasn't a 'golden time' as some would have it - it was poor and life for the majority was hard.

We cannot go back - we need to progress and keep up with the changing times; there may be much to put right but going back in time to an imagined golden era is not the right way to go about it.] End Quote

Jalima1108, you state in your above post that "we need to progress and keep up with changing times". Therefore, can we then look at just what that "progress" and " changing times" has brought to many in todays Britain.

We have progressed to a housing situation that see families living in rented accommodation which they can be evicted from on four weeks notice even when they have no rent arrears and in full compliance with the terms.

We have progressed to an employment situation where many have to exist on zero or low hours employment contracts or survive in the gig economy.

We have progressed to a living standard where for many low income working families the use of a food bank is required to keep those families fed each week.

We have progressed to witness increasing numbers once again sleeping on our streets, dependent on charities to survive.

We have progressed to a health situation where our once cherished health service is now so starved of funds that people wait for many hours in accident and emergency to be seen, while others wait many months for essential operations.

We have progressed to an education system that sees schools so short of funding that letters are sent home to parents asking for donations to provide essential books etc for their children.

We have progressed to a society where the very wealthy continue to get richer and receive ever more tax cuts, while those in hard working middle England have seen their living standards fall, especially if they work in the public services that we all so much rely on.

Jalima1108, I could go on. However, I believe that the above demonstrates what Britain's "progression" has meant for so many.

I left school at the age fifteen in 1960 with no qualifications whatsoever. Fortunately, I emerged into a Britain of full employment and more jobs than people to fill them. In that, lifelong education was cost free and readily available through the local councils and the trade unions. I was therefore able to progress in my chosen profession to the very top and eventually own my own company where I am still involved now.

The above I feel could not be copied now, or at the least be very difficult to achieve. For in that, centre governments of all parties have failed this country over very many years, and the current government offers more of the same.

What Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party are offering is at least to break the mould and to try something radical and different. Hence, the huge rise in Labour party membership. The Conservatives are in a position also to offer a different approach to the problems.of Britain, but with many Eton educated millionaires along their front bench in the House of Commons, I do not feel that is going to happen.

I fully endorse your post grandad

?? granddad.

Grandad1943 Great post. Thanks for reminding us of the realities of life for many, the reasons why so many people are turning to Labour and why this Tory government has to go

Harriet didn't stand Petra, she has been deputy leader and acting leader, she is totally comitted to the Labour Party and has always fought for women's eaquality , she would be angry that someone who hit his wife was not taken to task by the leader.

Seems the true reason why many are turning to labour is exposed in the press today, and no use crying ' the press are right wing' they have only reported what Corbyn support groups have posted .

Iam64 one contributory factor is the mistreatment of the Palestinian people which leads many young people into acting with passion and commitment. In doing so they sometimes unfortunately begin to ask for measures which are considered anti-semitic.
Another is the supression of artistic expression, something which is not as GGMk2 pointed out considered acceptable for other faiths.
The last of course is the assumption that anti-semitism is always easy to identify and has specific ideas and actions, whereas of course much of it is hidden and masked, so that although the right words are spoken, the ideas of anti-semitism still underpin actions. The sort of anti-semitism that has always been found in the English upper classes and the establishment.