Corbyn's Elasticity

Grandad

How to take a bit of a post and twist it to make it sound as if I said something I didn't!

We cannot go back - we need to progress and keep up with the changing times; there may be much to put right but going back in time to an imagined golden era is not the right way to go about it.

I don't believe that you don't understand what it was like in the days when the Labour party arose and how different Britain is today.

And I said there may be much to put right which you are somehow denying that I said. Today's problems are not those of the early 1900s and need a fresh approach from a forward-looking, not a backward-looking party.

And if you remember that 1960 was a golden era (not the period many mean when they say 'going back to Labour party roots) then perhaps you may also remember that the Conservatives had been in power then from 1951 - 1964.
'You've never had it so good' apparently.

We may need a different approach altogether from what is happening now but Corbyn and the disarray around him is not the answer.

??Jalima1108 Sun 01-Apr-18 10:29:49

We have heard of the left winning in 1945 , they were kicked out five years later and took 13 years to get back in. They were kicked out in 1983 and took 14 years to get back in

Jalima ??

There were 12 members of Corbyn's staff and McDonald who were members of the groups exposed by The Times, but they didn't notice the vile posts , thousands of them , how much longer can Corbyn and Co wriggle of the hook by saying - I didn't notice .

Quite shocking isn’t it, what The Times have uncovered about Corbyn’s staff and the ghastly FB groups.
I expect it will be dismissed as a ‘smear’ by many Corbynites though ( as usual.)

trisher Fri 30-Mar-18 18:57:03
Please can we have an emoticon showing someone with fingers in their ears and whistling, for use when a poster keeps repeating them selves.

Those with their ' fingers in the ears ' are the same ones who had 'their fingers in their ears ' 2 years ago when the subject of Labour and Anti Semitism was being discussed on Gransnet way back then.

And I'm sure Corbyn is clinging on to power Annie as he believes that as they were kicked out in 2008, they'll be back 14 years later in 2022.

Jalima I absolutely agree ???

There was an interesting report in the Daily Mail yesterday talking about the different FB groups, and this is really well covered in the Sunday Times today too. It looks like quite an in-depth investigation, including commentary from a legal perspective.

I'm not surprised that a high percentage of LP members don't think this is a problem. It's so widespread that it has become normalised for them, perhaps. I don't think that's something that they should be proud of.

The ‘see and hear no evil’ monkeys springs to mind POGS

Lemon
That's wierd, OH and I were just having a ? as to who we would have depicting the 3 'wise' monkeys in the Labour Party.

Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot Petra ?

Jalima1108, in regard to your posting today (01/04/18 @10:28) then I do acknowledge that the 1960s was very much was an exceptional era and at the start of that era a conservative government led Britian. However, the foundation for that very stable economy had been brought forward by the Clement Atlee Labour government of 1945.

It was that government which many now perceive as the greatest peacetime administration this country has ever had. In that Atlee created the National Health Service, the Welfare State, the Nationalisation of the railways and many utilities to name just three of its achievements.

When the Conservative party came to power in 1950 the Churchill government changed very little, and that policy was followed by both the Eden and Macmillan governments up to the return of a Labour government in the mid 1960s

In the above, I do believe that at that time the conservatives were in many ways a progressive party keen to retain full employment and reasonable equality within our society. However, the Thatcher government was to end that stance in the conservative party and start Britain down the road of inequality and the "unacceptable face of capitalism"

Evidence to the change in the Conservative party was to be seen when Harold Macmillan stated in response to Margret Thatcher selling off much of Britain's nationally owned heavy industry, that it was "akin to selling off the family silver"

The conservatives and sadly successive Labour administrations have since that time, have followed a policy of "cosying up to the Bankers and multinationals"' to the sacrifice of equality and stability in Britain.

If this country is to reverse the current loss of services, employment conditions and wages and end the housing crisis, then radical change in the eyes of many is required and in that once again it is the Labour movement that seeks to bring forward that change.

POGS my post referred specifically to those posters who simply repost the same comments again and again, something I'm sure you will agree does not move a debate forward or add to the quality of any thread.
As far as I remember there was an extensive debate about what constitutes anti-semitism and the difficulties involved with identifyting it and seperating it from support for Palestinians. The same problems remain of course but progress has been made not the least in the form of Amnesty International's support www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/
Of course there are still those who choose to throw accusations of anti semitism around and never really want to debate the subject, simply use it as a political slur. Which does no one any good in the long run.

Grandad 1943

" I am beginning to believe that this issue may "eventually" bring Jeremy Corbyn down. However, there is little chance of anyone associated with the Blair, Brown or Milliband structures becoming leader of a dramatically changed Labour party.

However, within that there are a very few who are respected across the whole Labour movement. One such person would be Jack Dromey who came up through the TGWU trade union from shop steward to senior national organizer, and then went on to become the national finance secretary for the Unite union when it was formed doing a great job.

He entered Parliamentary in 2010 and became a shadow minister in the Milliband structure, though often not agreeing with the "soft socialism" put forward in that era.

Dromey and one or two with similar experience to his own have knowledge and experience of the Labour movement from grassroots to Parliamentary party. Where re-organization would seem to be required in the light of such rapid growth in membership, Dromey for me would be the person for the job."
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Jack Dromey? Don't you think Dromey has issues that would resurface that would make him a poor candidate as Labour Leader?.

I am thinking of his connection and Harriet Harmen whilst on the National Council for Civil Liberties and the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE). At least the once Labour MP Patricia Hewitt took a personal responsibility and apologised .

Jack Dromey will always be known as the man who gained his seat initially in Birmingham Eddington because his wife the then EQUALITIES Minister Harriet Harman failed to back an all-women shortlist for Eddington although the other Birmingham seats had 'imposed all-women shortlists '.
Harriet Harmen was the biggest advocate of the 'all women short list' and it was widely viewed as hypocrisy at the time.

Dromey may have apologised for not declaring continued payments from Unite the union but it will stick no doubt if ever he went for Labour Leader.

Besides which having resigned from Corbyns Shadow Cabinet as Police Minister I don't think Corbyn/Momentum supporters will be too enamored with him giving his reason for quitting do you?

trisher

"POGS my post referred specifically to those posters who simply repost the same comments again and again, something I'm sure you will agree does not move a debate forward or add to the quality of any thread."
----
My post also referred to those who posts the same comments again and again but my point is those who refused to see any remotely possible connection between Labour and Anti Semitism 2 years ago when the stories were equally as rife still refuse to to accept ant remote possibly their is as much a problem to date as their was 2 years ago.

So would you like to post some examples of those POGS as you seem so sure they exist?
I can post some of the perpetually repeated pots if you wish but I am sure you now exactly what they are.

Grandad 1943

"In the last few days I believe that some key figures in that wider movement have been weakening in their support of Corbyn, strengthened by the election of persons with strong trade union backgrounds to key positions in the party. In that the trade union wing of the movement may now see a chance to bring one of their own into a position of leadership of the wider Labour movement and the Parliamentary party.

However, whatever happens to Jeremy Corbyn the party will not be returning to the days and policies of Blair, Brown and Milliband for in a much larger and changed party those days are long gone."
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Your point brings me back to the question re the Unions and Momentum and has Momentum served as a 'useful tool' to get the Labour Party to swing back to the left/far left.

After all you have stated if I am not mistaken Jeremy for Leader/Momentum arose from the Unions . Do you think Momentum will remain as powerful within the Corbyn/Mc Donnell era or indeed outside of a Corbyn/McDonnell era?.
Could the Union beast eventually regain it's power over Labour .

It cannot be denied the Jeremy for Leader / Momentum Party has worked wonders for membership numbers and selection of 'their preferred candidates ' for both General Elections and Councils alike but it has to a degree made the Unions look like the weaker of the two and the recent Formby/Lansman power struggle has been a possible indicator of what the future may hold, possibly.

As for the comment " whatever happens to Jeremy Corbyn the party will not be returning to the days and policies of Blair, Brown and Milliband for in a much larger and changed party those days are long gone." that is a joy to some ears but to others a nightmare. Not everybody has fond recollections of the days when the like of 'Militant' were in charge of the Unions although obviously there are many who relished those days and have 'RETURNED' to the Labour fold through Momentum for example after turning their backs on Labour under Blair/Brown.

trisher

"So would you like to post some examples of those POGS as you seem so sure they exist?"
-

I could do as you ask I suppose but I would be accused of being a Stalker.

Some posters appear not to have moved on from believing the recent stories/allegations of anti semitism are not to this day some sort of smoke and mirrors and attempts to split Labour as they did back then.

No matter what the stories were regarding the need for Labour to look at it's problem with anti semitism from Baroness Jan Royall/Oxford Labour group, Shami Chakrabarti Report, countless Labour MP's reporting anti semitism in the party etc. etc. there will always be those with 'fingers in their ears' and dismiss it as right wing propaganda even though the information is from those at the heart of Labour.

I will save you the trouble Trisher .

Corbyn supports equality of the sexes but walked out on the second Mrs Corbyn because she chose a different school to him for their son, no equality there .

Corbyn is a pacifist who supported the IRA

Corbyn 'I feel your pain' to the victims of the tower fire but was totally indifferent to the pain of colleagues when he invited IRA leaders to Westminster after the Brighton bombing.

Corbyn betrayed party members who were working so hard to get Labour electable again after the 1983 disasterous election results .

But let's forget these and just say he supports equality of the sexes, is a pacifist, feels pain for those who suffer, is a loyal labour MP .

POGS
See -fingers in ears
As far as the discussion goes do you not think then that there are currently members of the Labour party under suspension because of allegations of anti-semitism? If there are (and of course there are) what else do you think should or could be done. Surely the least we can expect in a democratic society is that due process should be followed and all those accused should receive a fair hearing. The other alternative of trial by MSM is too extreme to consider, although of course it might suit the agenda of some people.

None so blind as those who do not wish to see ?

Truth is truth, if some keep posting of the caring Corbyn I can keep posting of the uncaring Corbyn

McDonald was a member of one of these vile groups but didn't read the posts.

Corbyn defended the mural by saying ' Rockefeller ( a Jew ) destroyed a mural of Lenin . Corbyn didn't look closely at the mural so didn't notice it was anti semetic yet spoke of a Jew destroying a mural

If we can't have fingers in ears please could we have a "Yawn".

POGS I can't see how posting evidence could in anyway be confused with 'stalking'. Perhaps there just isn't any evidence.

Just yawn Trisher, I do when I read some posts here but I have no need to tell the world, think that would be attention seeking or showing off the fact I want to try to be spiteful, too childish.

More than 17,000 Labour members have quit the party in the past three months as disputes over antisemitism and Russia erode Jeremy Corbyn’s support base.

An article in the Times today. I suppose people who have been saying how many people joined the LP this month should have asked how many more had left.

The drop is understood to have caused alarm at the highest levels in the party, who fear it has damaged the Labour leader’s appeal, particularly among younger voters.

The most recent figures show that not a single English region has reported a rise in membership since the start of the year.