Regret it Brexit?

For many of us it is somewhat chilling to hear a brexit enthusiast praising Trump. Cambridge Analytical must be celebrating.

I would like to know when the U.K. stopped being governed by a Parliamentary democracy to a country governed by referendum because I must have missed that news - which I find worrying as I try to keep up with things.

I'm struggling to recognise the lowest quarterly growth figure for decades as an indicator of a booming economy.

The U.K. has lowest productivity in Europe, and it’s going down. It may be a “wealthy” country but that wealth is held in a vastly more unequal society by those few at the top of the pike- it’s austerity for the majority of us and that’s not stopping anytime soon. As for manufacturing - it’s less than 10% of our economy - we just don’t make stuff anymore - Mrs T saw to that.

Pile not pike - typo

Is that the whole of the EU Geri or just the G7 countries? Does it takes employment rates into consideration?

I voted to leave the EU and would not change my vote.
The more we see of the EU the more I realise just how right my view was of that unelected elite, building up their pensions at our expense.

Only three countries in the EU have any money that is ourselves, Germany and France, and between the three we contribute most of the money for the other 20 odd Countries.

Take a look a Greece, bailed out of bankruptcy twice, never paid a penny back to the EU, because they just can't. They are not going to leave until they are thrown out, who would when you can keep being bailed out by the rest of the EU, mainly the three economically sound Countries.

Germany is struggling because of the invitation from Angela Merkel to people who made it to Germany to be given citizenship, accommodation, education and health services. This has brought Germany to it's knees. Civil unrest, fighting in the streets.

People need space, people need infrastructures, services and facilities to house, feed, cloth and provide work to sustain orderly economies and societies. An additional six million people arriving in a Country without any of these additional facilities, is political,social and economic disaster in the making.

At the moment we cannot trade with the rest of the world. As we enter the twenty-first century, we must look to the future and have the freedom to trade as we wish.

We cannot be controlled by unelected eurocrats. Look at just how much they are trying to control our elections with their rejection of the government attempts to introduce modern technology and trusted trader status to deal with the Irish boarder, all rejected and visit's to Ireland and London the day before our Local Elections. These are all spoiling tactics. As it turned out it had no effect.

My view is that we should go ahead with our suggestion for the high tech and trusted trader status border between the EU ( Southern Ireland) at the Northern Irish border and see what the EU does.

Does anyone remember that we use to run this country without the EU and we ran it very well. I voted in 1977 to enter a common market and over the last forty years by stealth we are moving towards a United Nations of Europe. No one ever in that forty years asked me or you if all the changes that have gradually crept in and taken us miles away from just a trading agreement that I voted for.

Even our food has to be standardised. The organisation by the EU is dreadful it take up to ten years to negotiate contracts in some cases. Some things that have come out of this EU experiment have been good, health and safety, some food standards and we will keep the good and dispense with the unsuitable for us.

Does anyone remember the shambles of the butter mountains, the milk production that was paid for and the milk poured away for years, and years. All money that we pay out to milk producers from the central pot, being wasted. Farmers paid to have fields lying fallow.

What ever you think about Margaret Thatcher she got that hugh discount on our payment to the EU. David Cameron failed because they simply didn't think they needed to listen to him. This showed the balance of power had changed significantly.

These unelected eurocrats, ignoring an elected representative of the peoples of a sovereign Country. He stood by his word and the EU were really shocked when he did allow the referendum, that was his card up his sleeve, they did not believe he would do it when they ignore the request he made. Well done David Cameron for standing by your word and coming to the people.

It is essential that all British citizens have the right to live and work in a Country where the benefits are for those citizens who have worked and contributed but fallen ill or on hard times, or are ageing.

The NHS must be available for those who have paid National Health Insurance. Can you imagine having a private health insurance and someone who hasn't paid into that Insurance plan just walking into get a new hip. This is exactly what is happening on the NHS, people who do not and have not paid NI are being treated.

The NHS was set up as an insurance funded organisation,free at the point of delivery. It is not free, we pay NI (National Health Insurance). Since 1947 all British citizens have paid into that system through NI from their wages, or businesses. So when people say, that the baby boomers and the aged, because they are living longer are a drain on the NHS, I say, we paid the insurance for what we get now. If you want to save money then you give a bill to those who have no NI insurance unless it is an emergency, then you sort it out after they are seen to.

The other thing that gets on my nerves is that the young are being encouraged to think that they are keeping us in pensions, benefits and healthcare and that sort of thinking is unfair. We worked and put them through education, healthcare and provided a decent society for them to grow up in, by paying our tax and NI for a working lifetime . It's their turn now. That's how it works. I refuse to allow the up coming generations to refer to me because I am ageing as a burden on society.

Back to Brexit. The house of lords is now full of peers that are not hereditary, although there are some still left, about 20%, the rest are cronies from Parliament who are given peerages by Prime Ministers for services rendered to give them a great pension and a daily income of £350 or so pounds.

They are also there to repay their parties as required, which is what is happening now, because there are more labour and liberal ex MP's in the House of Lords, who are voting to bring down Brexit, because they all have a vested interest, their pensions their consultancy fees are mostly earn in the EU and within the EU Commission.

Tony Blair made up more MP's to Peers than any other Prime Minister in history. I don't have the figures but you can look it up.

How dare these unelected Peers attempt to destroy the democracy of this country by blocking the Brexit bill, put together by an elected House of Parliament and an elected Government, for political purposes only. No thought to the democracy of the majority vote.

The democratic principle is majority vote has it, and once this is ignored, overturned in anyway then democracy in this Country is dead. The trust between the voters and Politicians will be gone.

I love this Country, I am proud to be British and I think how good fortune smiled on me that I was born into a country where freedom of speech is respected, freedom to vote and have that vote respected and honoured. Freedom to move around without identity cards. I could go on.

We have always been a tolerant nation, but I am seeing signs that this is being eroded, by Militant groups associated with Corby's labour party, I stress Corbyns labour party. Even people with different views being attacked on line at a most personal level. By all means put a different point of view, but don't resort to personal attack.

Whatever you think about Theresa May, she has stood by the democratic vote. She is being pelted from all sides and she is standing up for democracy. I for one, think if she was a man she would not be getting one half the personal insults that are thrown at her from remainers in the corridors of power.
Power to her elbow.

Lets get behind our Government and democracy and get out of the unelected governance of the EU. If proof was ever needed about the type of power they have over us, then these Brexit negotiations have shown us just how much these unelected eurocrats control us. We can't vote them out, we can't vote them in. What are we thinking about even considering that sort of governance.

I apologies for extending the discussion beyond Brexit a little.

Luckygirl

If you are interested in the negotiations and the extent of the work that is going on go on the Government website for Brexit. You will be amazed at just what is happening and I hope impressed.

Welshwife I don't quite understand what you mean with your comment about Parliamentary democracy and a country being run by referendum.

Referendum is a legitimate legal and political way of putting a question to the people. We did it when we went into the "common market" in 1977 and we have done it again when we are unhappy with our treatment in the EU. We have said as a Nation that we wish to leave the EU. Now the danger lies if the Parliamentary system somehow blocks the will of the people. That would mean that democracy in this Country is dead. Do go onto the Brexit Government website you will see the progress on every departmental level of the negotiations and hopefully you will be impressed.

Tge government website is unsurprisingly biased towards optimism. This government is showing inadequacies at every turn and there are numerous websites which highlight their incompetence over Brexit. As for this “will of the people’, it’s hardly united the nation has it.? 17 m out of a population of 60million voted to leave doesn’t seem like a landslide, seems like the nation is more divided than ever.

unelected elite
Do you choose not to vote in the European elections every five years allygran? How strange!

I am bemused by this insistence that while in the EU we can't trade with the rest of the world when every other item one buys seems to be made in China and we are busily selling arms to Middle Eastern countries. I also understand that we do a great deal of trade with the USA. And blow me if I don't eat green beans from Kenya and potatoes from Egypt. Are these countries not in 'the rest of the world'?

Excellent posts Allygran

Allygran1 thank you for a reasoned argument pro brexit for once. I read an understood and it all and respect your reasoning even though I dont agree with you. It is refreshing to read an intelligent pro Brexit piece instead of the frequent rant of 'we want our country back'. I hate it when these discussions turn into personal abuse.

Referendum is a legitimate legal and political way of putting a question to the people. We did it when we went into the "common market" in 1977

It isn't the 'usual way of working' in our parliamentary democracy. Countries which regularly use referenda make sure that sure that they are very tightly run with majority requirements and factual information given for and against the question being asked. The objections to the sloppy running of 'our' referendum are too well known, I think, for me to repeat them.

We weren't asked about 'going into the common market' and it wasn't in 1977. It was 1975 and we were asked about continuing membership after joining in 1973.

Varian can you tell me what the advantages are of being in the EU that you mention?

Gerispringer the Country is split because those in power who have a vested interest in staying in the EU refuse to accept the will of the people. Just a reminder that democracy in this Country is majority vote. We are not talking about landslides. In this country if there are three majority they have it. Seventeen million is not an insubstantial amount and we should not even be debating this. We are a democracy based on majority vote, if that is not upheld then you have anarchy and democracy is dead.

Our very democracy is being threatened by the remain voters in power for their own ends. I for one will do everything I can to protect our democracy.

Can you be more explicit about this Government inadequacies as you see them. I would find that interesting and will respond.

MaizieD you are quite correct we are not a country that works on referenda. Nevertheless it is a legitimate way of putting a question to the people. As I said before it was used when we voted to enter a "common market" not join a United Nations of Europe may I add.

The core of our democracy when the people are consulted either by referenda as in this case with the EU twice in forty years or by local or general elections the principal is the same, we honour a majority vote, be it that the majority is 3, 30, etc you get the drift.
Our Democracy is under threat with this, if the vote is not honoured then I dread to think what will ensue.

MaizieD, thank you for your correction you are of course quite correct with your detail. With just one exception.
In the first national referendum, in 1975, voters were presented with first a statement and then a question. The statement was this: “The Government have announced the results of the renegotiation of the UK’s terms of membership of the European Communities.” The question which followed was: “Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?”
Read more at www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/learning-from-history-the-1975-referendum-on-europe#a2yd7SCUwAKpuVkQ.99
By the way there it seems have been eleven referenda used i Great Britain since this first one in 1975, mainly used for devolution purposes.

Thank you Pollyperkins. Your postings are equally reasoned I find. The more information put forward in a proper manner even if others don't agree, the better we will all be for it.

As you gathered I am more concerned about our democracy being threatened. I won't go through it yet again, I am sure your yawning by now. But you get the drift I am sure.
Thanks again.

Mailed your question about trading and the veg that you get from a variety of non EU Countries is a really interesting one and we should explore this. I found it interesting and it is clear when you go onto the EU rules sight for trading that it is complex. First food that come into any EU Country it seems is traded through EU conventions and rules. We are trading as an EU Country not a Sovereign state. When there are arguments about tariffs then other non EU Countries can
bring about investigations Actions against exports from the EU
This is what the EU trading rules website says:
As the world's leading exporter, the EU is sometimes the subject of trade defence investigations initiated in non-EU countries.

The EU's trade policy aims to help the EU to compete better on international markets. Unwarranted trade defence measures unfairly block EU exporters' free access to the world's markets, and their negative impact should be minimised whenever possible.
Any exporting industry subject to a trade defence action initiated by a non-EU country is responsible for defending its rights throughout the proceedings and for cooperating with the investigating authorities to favour a positive outcome.
Trade defence measures against EU exports in force in non-EU markets

Measures in force:
India
China
USA
Brazil
Turkey
Indonesia
Australia
Argentina
Canada
Marocco
others
Country
Measures in force, December 2013
EU trade defence policy
Now I can't say I understand this completely and if anyone else is smarter and can add to this understanding for all of us then please add to the knowledge. However how I read this is that at it's basic level, what seems to happen is that EU tariffs and trading agreements if they are considered unfair by other non EU Countries then they can bring legal challenge and block that trade and in 2013 the list you see above where just some of the Countries that legal challenges against the EU tariffs where registered with the EU. This of course would stop once we are outside of the EU. We would I think be able to negotiate separate trade agreements, in fact I remember hearing that we already have Canada,Australia and India just waiting to sign on the dotted line to trade once we are free of the restrictions of the EU.

I will investigate this further and post what I find out. Any one else just join in, but please make your post factual and say where you get your info from then we can all read it for ourselves and come to our own conclusions.

This is really interesting stuff.

Sorry MaizieD the self correct speller on this keeps changing your name my apology the above post is for you, and every body else of course.

Hello Mostly Harmless, yes of course I vote in everything, after all women went through hell to get my voice heard through the democratic vote.

The point I am making Mostly Harmless is, that the people who run the EU the Junkers etc are unelected. Yes we do have MEPs but they largely no intact they are like our MP's supposed to represent us in the EU Parliament. Do you know what difference they make..no neither do I. Other than Nigel Farage the rest of them just seem to draw the wages and substantial substance payments and we know not how they earn it.

The men who I refer to are even more powerful, I suppose would be the equivalent to our head of state or elected Ministers of State to oversee all major arms of state like the Legal system, Home Office, Foreign Office etc. These are men mainly, who unlike our people with similar power are unelected power holders, controlling as they are now even the negotiations for us to exit the EU, and making that as difficult as possible for us. This is interference in our democratic process by unelected power holders in the EU.
Hope this helps sorry not to have been clearer before.

Thank you Smileless2012. Keep me on the straight and narrow if I start to drift.

Gerispringer love this handle by the way.
The Brexit Government website is not biased, every piece of paper by departments of state informs and shows the documents that are either already agreed yes agreed or are in negotiation. You can read for yourself what is being done, and where they are up to. This is a big, big job, but come on, we are a great administrative Country we can run anything and do anything, it's what we are good at. But do read it for yourself. I will find the web site and post it if your interested.
This is not about Conservative, Labour (if you can still call them that sadly they have been hijacked by the Trotskyites) or Lib Dem or the Greens etc, etc. This is about preparing this Country for a different future a twenty-first century future, that has to be Global. That includes the EU, we will trade with them if the tariffs are right, but we cannot be in a single market with the EU alone. It does not make sense.
Lets face it, the scaremongers who say well people from the EU will not be able to come here, nonsense, they will apply for a Visa if they want to work or reside, what is wrong with that? We do it if we want to live in any Country outside of the EU. If we want to work or live in the EU then we will apply for a visa.

It is not rocket science and it protects our citizens from those who would seek to exploit us. When I talk about our citizens, I mean everybody, whatever religion, colour, political view.

If you are a citizen of this Country then you are of this Country. We live here and we should seek to do no harm to other citizens and be loyal to the hand that feeds us in my view.