Unintended consequences of brexit

Problem also is now that so much damage has been done to society by the referendum that it will be hard to settle down properly again - whatever the eventual solution is - there has never been this absolute rudeness from one side to another after any form of election or referendum in living memory. It’s all a bit like the lid being opened on Pandora’s box.

I did hear a prediction the other day which struck me as very likely to be true "whatever happens you can guarantee that the angry brexiters will continue to blame the EU for everything that goes wrong for the next thirty years"

Oh yes, I think we can be sure of that Varian. Good morning all. I am happy to see that there are a few brave people speaking out, Nicky Morgan etc. Makes a nice change from the blustering fools that are forever getting dragged out to remind us of 'the will of the people', Jacob Rees-Mogg/Michael Gove/Boris Johnson? What a bloody shower they are, and I note that the more doubts are coming to the fore about this whole debacle, the nastier and more vehement these people are. I have said this before, but I think it is worth repeating; in time, students of economic and political history will be studying this period and will wonder just what the hell happened. USA elects Trump and some of the UK electorate vote for fiscal suicide, just to sort out a long standing bitch fight within the Tory party. As a result of some (not all) of the GB electorate expressing their unhappiness with they way their lives are going, and giving a 'kicking' to the 'establishment' we are now all being led by a PM who voted against the idea, by a cabinet who are too busy putting their own careers before their constituents and by a opposition party not worthy of the name, into a huge period of unknown economics........and still, despite many requests we have yet to have one good reason from many on here as to why it is such a good idea. You couldn't make it up

On the various threads about Brexit since the referendum there have been numerous posts from leave voters as to why they made that decision Gill.

The problem is for some posters that unless they voted their way, it doesn't matter what good reasons have been given, they're automatically considered bad.

You're probably right when you say in years to come students of political and economic history will be studying this period. They may well ask why the hell was there such a fallout over the referendum result when leaving the EU was the best thing we could have done.

Varian another prediction could be that what ever happens the angry remainers will continue to blame the brexiters for everything that goes wrong for the next 30 years.

Well I still haven’t seen any “good reasons” for Brexit yet smileless.

Not one - in all those posts.

I'm sure you haven't mostlyharmless for the reason I gave in my post.

“Good reasons” smileless?
Brexit posters would much rather use personal attacks than give “good reasons” I notice.

Recent reasons given by posters:

1. “We’ll be able to trade with the rest of the world”
Err no. We already do. We trade with all the major trading nations and most of the smaller ones.

2. “The EU is an unelected elite”
Err no. We vote every five years for MEPs, they in turn elect a President. In Britain we don’t elect our Prime Minister, the largest party of MPs does (with help from their party members unless it’s stitched up before that stage).

3. Another reason? “Brexit means more money for the NHS.”
Errr no!

21 Feb 2018 · A new big red Brexit bus is on tour – and we’re reasonably confident Boris Johnson won’t be quite so keen on posing next to it. ... Instead of the notorious £350m a week NHS promise, the bus highlights the likely costs of a hard Brexit: £2,000 million a week

Any “good reasons” that aren’t lies?
Blue passports perhaps.

Mostlyharmless "“Good reasons” smileless?
Brexit posters would much rather use personal attacks than give “good reasons”"

Mostlyharmless just to remind you what we have been discussing on the other thread. It fits your last posting to smileless2012.

In football, it would be known as playing the man, not the ball. Away from the beautiful game, it might be considered to be an "ad hominem" approach.
Brian Taylor BBC News Political editor, Scotland

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".
Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is categorized as an informal fallacy,[4] more precisely as a genetic fallacy a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.

Grahams Hierarchy of Disagreement lists:
Show ad hominem as the second lowest type of argument in a disagreement. With name calling the lowest level.

Well then according to you I’ve been subject to the lowest level by a pro Brexit poster.

Gerispringer.

The ball not the person!

Well despite all the obfuscation and bluster, redirection to other posts and nauseating agreement by some, of everything that allyg posts, I still do not read a good positive reason to leave the EU. I await a load of deliberate misunderstanding and out of context quotations of what I have just posted, but can anyone give a good reason, apart from those already disproved of course.

allygran

The ball not the person

Oops Sorry didn’t know you were the referee

I have been subject to personal remarks so what am I supposed to say - someone wasn’t playing ball properly ? Oi ref! I haven’t been playing any people btw. I was complaining about personal remarks being made. In your erudite ( hmm) post you made the point about name calling being the lowest level of comment - there wasn’t much ball playing there.

For those of us still looking for any good reason to leave the EU, how about this for "balance"?

The main advantage for the UK is that it can again prohibit the free flow of people from the EU. That was the primary reason people voted for Brexit. They were concerned about an increase in refugees from the Middle East.

The UK will be able to tax without following EU guidelines. It also won't have to pay EU membership fees.

The main disadvantage is that Brexit will slow growth. The UK's Treasury chief Philip Hammond reported that his country's growth would slow to 2.4 percent in 2018, 1.9 percent in 2019, and 1.6 percent in 2020. He forecast that exit fees will cost an extra £3 million over the next two years.

Another disadvantage is the potential loss of Britain's tariff-free trade status with the other EU members. Tariffs raise the cost of exports, making British companies higher-priced and less competitive.

It also increases import prices. That creates inflation and lowers the standard of living for UK residents.

Brexit would be disastrous for The City, the UK's financial center. It would no longer be the base for companies that use it as an English-speaking entry into the EU economy. That could lead to a real estate collapse in The City. Many new office buildings are under construction. They may sit empty if The City's financial services industry moves elsewhere.

The UK will lose the advantages of EU state-of-the-art technologies. It grants these to its members in environmental protection, research and development, and energy.

Also, UK companies risk losing the ability to bid on public contracts in any EU country. These are open to bidders from any member country. The most significant loss to London is in services, especially banking. Practitioners will lose the ability to operate in all member countries. This could also raise the cost of airfares, the internet, and even phone services.

Brexit will hurt Britain's younger workers. Germany is projected to have a labor shortage of two million workers by 2030. Those jobs will no longer be as readily available to the UK's workers after Brexit.

Trade and travel in the island of Ireland will become more complicated. Northern Ireland will remain with the UK, while southern Ireland remains a part of the EU. Prime Minister May rejected the EU proposal that there be a customs border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. But no one wants a customs border between northern and southern Ireland, for fear of aggravating tensions.

www.thebalance.com/brexit-consequences-4062999

Gerispringer. Post to Allygran1 you said: "In your erudite ( hmm) post you made the point about name calling being the lowest level of comment - there wasn’t much ball playing there."

In my post I referred to Grahams hierarchy of quality of argument. The lowest level is name calling, the next one up is ad hominem not playing the ball, attacking the person.
On a self monitoring site, really it shouldn't be necessary to have reference to "play the ball" or have a referee.

But you are the self appointed one obv.

Well play the ball not the man, allyg (or tackle the ball if you prefer and don’t mind ending up with your face in the mud) and offer us a “good reason” for Brexit without cut and pasting lengthy, irrelevant information that no one will read anyway.

Keep it concise, and relevant.

Varian " UK companies risk losing the ability to bid on public contracts in any EU country".

The Policy Department A: Economic and Scientific Policy Page8 PE 602.028 states:
Public contracts
The postition of the UK in relation to the GPA post-Brexit is not clear. One view is that the UK needs to rejoin the GPA after Brexit if it is to undertake commitments and receive benefits under the Agreement. Another view is that succession to the Agreement by the UK is possible, with no new application required. The approach that is taken to the UK’s position in practice seems likely to depend on the legal interpretations that are acceptable to the current GPA Parties as a whole, and the extent of consensus on this matter.

Whatever the approach taken, however, if the Parties agree that it is desirable for the UK to continue with the rights and obligations that it has under the GPA as an EU Member State, it may be possible for this to be arranged very swiftly, and even for this to take/remain in effect at the time of Brexit.

www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/602028/IPOL_STU(2017)602028_EN.pdf

True to form (to keep your “sporting” metaphor going.)

Mostlyharmless thanks for your advice.

Gerispringer Play the ball not the person.

So many hostile posts on here.....simply because Remainers on GN (some) have decided they don’t like the Leavers.
Nobody has to give you reasons for anything mostlyh in fact many have given their reasons again and again in the last two years, maybe you weren’t on GN then.
Accept that we are leaving the EU and talk about the negotiations, this constant harping on about new referendums and fighting on the beaches to stop it happening are just wishful thinking.

Geri can you not see it is you making personal comments on here......time to stick to the subject.

The Referendum, unfortunately, unleashed an awful lot of hostility didn’t it lemongrove?

Yes it did, but there is nothing wrong in at least trying to not have a go at other posters on social media simply because they voted one way or another.